18 - Swearin' Time

519 turns

• linkHedvig Skirgård - It feels like we've gone down a funny tree in, like, a timeline.I've been playing more computer games lately because of lockdown— I'm sure everyone has —and I keep thinking to myself, can we go back to the previous save point?
• linkHedvig Skirgård - LAUGHTER
• linkHedvig Skirgård - INTRO MUSIC
• linkDaniel Midgley - Hello, and welcome to this episode of Because Language, a show about linguistics, the science of language.My name is Daniel Midgley, and with me for this episode, the effervescent Hedvig Skirgård.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - What does EFFERVESCENT mean?
• linkHedvig Skirgård - LAUGHTER
• linkDaniel Midgley - Well!We have with us…okay, I guess now's a good time to bring out our guest!We are joined by a very special guest for this episode.She's a lexicographer, a former writer of definitions for Merriam-Webster, a former presenter of the Fiat Lex podcast with Steve Kleinedler, author of Word by Word:The Secret Life of Dictionaries and most recently appearing on Netflix's The History of Swear Words…it's Kory Stamper.Hi, Kory.
• linkKORY - Hello, hello.
• linkKORY - CLAPPING
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Is EFFERVESCENT a swear word?I'm assuming it's not.
• linkKORY - It's not.No, it's a nice term.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Okay.
• linkKORY - He was calling you bubbly and full of life.So lovely.
• linkDaniel Midgley - That's a good definition!You must be a pro.
• linkKORY - Yeah, I got a little practice.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Ben Ainslie has been waylaid by forces beyond his control for this episode, and asked me to convey his most salubrious salutations.
• linkKORY - Oh, thanks, man.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Now, we haven't talked to you for a while.We had a crossover episode with you, Kory, a couple of years ago.Since then, you've been pretty busy, would that be fair to say?
• linkKORY - I've been a little busy, yeah.I've been…as we have just covered, I was on the Netflix show History of Swearing as a expert.I've been doing some freelance lexicography.So right now, I'm actually doing freelance lexicography for Cambridge University.And I've continued to write books.I just can't seem to stop doing that.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Amazing.Does that mean if you're a lexicographer, and you're writing a lot of books, does that mean you know what the opposite is of writer's block?
• linkKORY - LAUGHSI do.It's…technically it's practice.But that doesn't mean that I am not waylaid by writer's block constantly.So, alas.Writers flow, I guess?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Writers flow is good, yeah.What's the new book you're working on?I knew that you had one in the, in the hopper.
• linkKORY - I had, I actually have two that are now in the hopper.The first…let’s see, the first one that's most in the hopper, I guess I can say, is a book that looks at the history of defining colour, and looks at a particular point in American history where colour became a national security concern.And so the government got involved in how colours were defined.Which is weird.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - That is weird.
• linkKORY - Um, so that one I have just finished edits on.And the second book that I am neck deep in right now and very much enjoying is a book called Mother Tongue:The Hidden History of How Women Made the English Language.So that'll be fun, when I finish it.I'm…I mean, I'm almost literally neck deep in it.My desk is piled high with secondary sources, primary sources.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Gosh.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Wow, where do you get all these great ideas for books from?It sounds so special and interesting.
• linkKORY - Well, we'll see if I can pull it off.
• linkKORY - LAUGHTER
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Okay, fair enough.
• linkKORY - That's…that's a lot to stick into 300 pages, but we'll see if I can do it.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay.We'll be looking forward to that.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yeah.'Cause I feel like sometimes I watch movies or read books.And I think, Oh, this is a great author, or this is a good director.But the idea has to carry the…
• linkKORY - Yeah, exactly.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - And sometimes, honestly, the idea doesn't even if the acting is very good, or the writing is very good.If the idea doesn't carry it, then it's, you know, whatever.So I'm impressed that you're about to spout these ideas.
• linkKORY - Well, the ideas, you know, actually the easiest part of the writing of the books.So we will see how, see how Mother Tongue goes.I'm really enjoying the research for it, though.It is very much up my alley.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yeah, sounds very cool.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I heard that humans didn't have receptors for the colour blue in their eyes until we had the words for them, and then we evolved them.So that was interesting.
• linkKORY - Interesting, but…not true.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Aw darn, another one!
• linkKORY - You know, it’s, that's like they say, the thing I always hear is people are like:We didn't see blue until at some point in, you know, the 14th century because there was, because we had no words in ancient Greek for blue.Which is hysterical, because they actually had two words for blue.And they just don't match up with the colour area that we think of as blue.When you think of blue, you have a particular colour in mind, and they split that into two colours.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - To be fair, though, I mean, there's an argument not to be the annoying person, but you could say…
• linkKORY - You can be the annoying person, that’s fine
• linkHedvig Skirgård - You could say even if it wasn't true that there wasn't a word for blue, you could say, oh, yeah, sure we received the particular frequencies in our eyes that was blue.But for all intents and purposes— and the human conceptual understanding of the world —blue didn't exist.That's, like an argument.
• linkDaniel Midgley - It's not dumb.
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHTER
• linkDaniel Midgley - It's not a dumb thing to think, right?Which is what I think everyone's going for.We can notice things that we don't have words for, which is how we get new words.So it's not quite right.
• linkKORY - Right, not quite.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - I’ve heard— So Daniel got to show off that he knew an interesting tidbit about colour, albeit false —I heard that European language really exploded in colour terms because of dyeing processes in the late Medieval Ages?
• linkKORY - Yeah, I think that's true there.I mean, most of the pigments that were used for dyeing and paint were prepared in Europe and prepared in the Levantine.And oftentimes, you would identify a colour by its pigment, so the more pigments that you had access to, the more colour names you had.And we've lost a lot of those names now, right?Like, there was a yellow called ORPIMENT that was really popular in the Renaissance.And we don't use the word ORPIMENT anymore for yellow because it's kind of…it's actually very difficult to say.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Orpiment.
• linkDaniel Midgley - What a freakin’ dumpy word, oh my god.
• linkKORY - Orpiment.I know, it's…you know, I mean, and the yellow and orpiment makes is kind of a, it's like a mustardy yellow.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Is it like ochre?
• linkKORY - Kind of like ochre.It's actually, it's a little brighter than that.So it's a little brighter than ochre.And it's a little…but it's not like super bright, like, like our modern conception of gold would be.A little bit toned down from gold.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Interesting.
• linkKORY - But a weird word, orpiment.It's just, it sounds like you're tripping over your own teeth when you say it.It's a really rough.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Hand me some more OrPimenT.
• linkKORY - It’s like ooh.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Ooh, wish I hadn't said that.Well, we are interested in colour terms and how that relates to the mind.So we might be bothering you again.But…
• linkKORY - Absolutely.
• linkDaniel Midgley - …for now we have…we have to bother you on swearing.Before we get to that:We're having a bonus Mailbag episode pretty soon, so if you want to hear that and support the show, get on to patreon.com/becauselangpod.Also get those questions to us:hello@becauselanguage.com or we are becauselangpod nearly everywhere.Let's do some news, you ready?
• linkKORY - You bet.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yeah.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay.We're starting with racist cheese.Do do do do do doRACIST CHEESE ALERT!
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHTER
• linkKORY - Like you do.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah.We've gotten a lot of mileage out of racist cheese, actually.Oh, my gosh.How many shows have we had on this, about four?
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yeah, I was gonna say about four.Yeah, I think this is number four.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Well, PharaohKatt has alerted us to some new information.We finally have a resolution because the racist cheese is no longer racist.Kory, when you got the run sheet with this Australian brand of cheese, what was your reaction?
• linkKORY - Oh, that it was racist.LAUGHTERAnd you know, this might be because, you know, this, this particular word has a maybe a different resonance in America than it has in other English speaking parts of the world, just because it's associated with slavery and the racism of slavery.So…but yeah, it was one of those I looked at it, and I just thought:who in their right mind would ever name any company that?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Or keep it, you know, having named it that?Yeah.So Saputo Corporation decided that they were going to rename the racist brand of cheese.Starts with a C ends with an N.It's got a couple of vowels in the middle, you know?
• linkHedvig Skirgård - So, no, I was just gonna say the thing that I think I say every episode, which is that I didn't know about this term, and I had to be educated on it because it's not something…I think, I think it is….It wasn't something I was ever taught or ever exposed to.I keep coming across various racist slurs.Like I watched Police Academy last night, and I learned a bunch of racist slurs I never heard.There's a lot of them that I've heard.It's quite surprising how many.
• linkKORY - It's not great.
• linkDaniel Midgley - No, it's not.And another thing that's not great, well, okay, maybe this is better.The name of the cheese is being changed in July.This new cheese is going to be hitting your shelves:Cheer Cheese.Cheer.That's the name of the cheese.
• linkKORY - Cheer cheese.Cheercheese.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Cheercheese.Cheer.It's not great, but it would be really hard to make the name worse than it already had been.
• linkKORY - Very true.Absolutely true.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Is it cheer as in CHEERS!or cheer as in SHEER?
• linkKORY - As in CHEERS.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Ah, okay.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Now I'm imagining people trying to clink cheese together in a salutary gesture.Cheers!*Slap*
• linkKORY - *Smush*
• linkDaniel Midgley - Sandwich slices.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Okay.Well, Australia already has Tasty cheese.So like, I'm not surprised.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah, Tasty cheese, but it's not a brand.Tasty cheese is like a variety, like Colby?
• linkHedvig Skirgård - I know.LAUGHS
• linkDaniel Midgley - Tasty.Maybe Cheer is Tasty.You know?Maybe…maybe the cheese landscape in Australia just got that little bit brighter, you know?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Some people are pig bitin’ mad.And we've heard from them on our Facebook page and on Twitter.Some people are just a little too into their cheese, okay?Like, imagine how you'd have to be to say, Well, on the one hand, we could get rid of a racist slur, but on the other hand, I'm really into the name of this cheese.I mean, you know what, uh, what are Mr.C's family gonna think?
• linkHedvig Skirgård - I mean the recipe of the cheese is still the same, it’s made by the same people.Probably tastes exactly the same.Correct?Right?
• linkDaniel Midgley - LIVID~It's not gonna taste THE SAME TO ME~
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHTER
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yeah, all right.Okay, never mind.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I think we know what this is about.And it's not about cheese.You know what I mean?
• linkKORY - Yes, yeah.
• linkDaniel Midgley - It's the old thing aboutDRAMATIC~everyone used to do things that I did, but now things are changing, and we're expected to not use racist language, and I don't know how to do it!~
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yes.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I think this is actually quite good, because this change to Cheer…LAUGHSorry, I still have to get used to it.
• linkKORY - Cheer Cheese!
• linkDaniel Midgley - CheerCheese!This change to CheerCheese harms no one except for people who want to be harmed.It's self inflicted.And they're the ones who deserve to be hurt, frankly.They could stop being hurt at any time on behalf of their beloved cheese, but you know…they can choke on it.They can choke on the Cheer Cheese.This is the alliterative show.
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHTER
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Okay.
• linkDaniel Midgley - We are going to move on.It looks like the US House of Representatives is adopting some gender neutral language for their rules document.Anyone notice the story?What did you notice?
• linkKORY - I did notice this story.I noticed this story because a US representative who…how do I put this gently, um, has a reputation for being not particularly smart…
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh god, is it…?Now I have to guess who it is.
• linkKORY - I know.Well the field is pretty broad, sadly.So…but he tweeted his outrage that this was happening, that the House was requiring what he called “gender neutral pronouns.” And then he gave a list of words like mother, father, brother, sister, sister in law, and said it was an outrage.And because I am who I am, like, I couldn't not respond to him?
• linkDaniel Midgley - You had to do it.
• linkKORY - So I just responded to him.And I said, “None of those are pronouns, Jim”
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHSI was gonna say Kevin McCarthy, but it was Jim Jordan, was it?
• linkKORY - It was Jim Jordan.Yes.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh, god.
• linkKORY - I mean, yes.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Of course it was.
• linkKORY - Of course it was.Um, so I heard about this, and then I was interested to see if actually pronouns were included.So somebody on Twitter sent me a link to the rules document and I thought it was actually a really pretty well considered and pretty thorough revision.There's…I don't believe that it's mandated you must use these things, unlike Jim Jordan thinks, but it is nice to see that you know, PARENT is there.CHILD is there.I think that just it…it's it's equally clear, it's not…
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Do they encourage, do they encourage HE/SHE or THEY?
• linkDaniel Midgley - I was looking for a singular THEY, just to see what they would do.
• linkKORY - Yeah, remember now I need to pull the document up again.
• linkDaniel Midgley - All right, well, let's go through the list.So SEAMEN will be replaced with SEAFARERS…
• linkKORY - LAUGHTEROkay, which…very important.I mean…
• linkDaniel Midgley - It's in there.It’s in there.CHAIRMAN will become CHAIR.Kory, as you mentioned, MOTHER, FATHER, DAUGHTER, SON, SISTER, BROTHER, will be swapped with terms such as PARENT, CHILD, and SIBLING– we still need NIBLING though –niece and nephew, what do we do?
• linkHedvig Skirgård - NIBLING?
• linkDaniel Midgley - NIBLING.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yeah, perfect.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Instead of “this person will submit HIS OR HER resignation”:“they will resign.” Just a little rewording there, which is very, very neat.The phrases “HE OR SHE serves” and “HE OR SHE holds” will be replaced with “such member delegate” or “resident Commissioner serves or holds”, so just avoiding pronouns entirely.And then finally— oh, and this is good —HIMSELF and HERSELF will be replaced with…get ready…THEMSELF!
• linkKORY - Whoa, THEMSELF?Whaaat?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Isn't that good?
• linkKORY - That's so good.Oh man, THEMSELF.
• linkDaniel Midgley - THEMSELF.All the way back to Caxton.
• linkKORY - This is gonna make so many people, so many grammar nerds so upset that it's not THEMSELVES.Oh, THEMSELF, amazing.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah, it’s great.
• linkKORY - All right, my day is hereby made.That's awesome.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Mine too, mine too.I notice also that the establishment of the Office of the Whistleblower OMBUDS, instead of OMBUDSMAN.
• linkKORY - Oh, and instead of OMBUDSPERSON, which is one I've also seen.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - That’s funny, why did they keep the S?
• linkKORY - Yeah, I mean, it's a government office.So you would think they'd want the longest title possible, but I mean, OMBUDS is fine.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah, but you couldn’t call them an ombud, would you?Would you?
• linkHedvig Skirgård - I mean, that is the Scandinavian word.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yes, it is.
• linkKORY - Right.That's true.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - So…but we delete the S unless ombudSman.So it’s OMBUD.So the S is a connective S.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh, wow.
• linkKORY - Oh, interesting.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - So like, if you delete the man, you shouldn't really have S.But I mean, it's a part of your language now, you do whatever you want with it.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Thank you.Thank you for…I would just…on behalf of English, I would just like to say, Hedvig, we appreciate the word.Thank you for loaning it to us from Norse…Is it Norse?Old Norse.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Scandi.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay, so.So that's, that's two things to get people angry about.And now that I think we've riled people up enough, I think now it's time to have some good news.And they both involve covid.This one was suggested by Diego and Nigel in various places on our Discord channel and on Patreon.We know that the vaccineS, various vaccines are being rolled out around the globe, which is great news.Time to beat back this virus.And it seems that the Standing Rock Sioux tribe in North Dakota and the Cherokee tribe in Oklahoma are prioritising the distribution of the COVID vaccine to people who speak Native American languages.If you're a fluent speaker, then you're in line a little earlier, which is great.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Oh, great!
• linkKORY - That’s awesome!
• linkDaniel Midgley - Let's see.Standing Rock tribal chairman Mike Faith says, “It's something we have to pass on to our loved ones, our history, our culture, our language.We don't have it in black and white, we tell stories.That's why it's so important.”
• linkHedvig Skirgård - That is amazing.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I just like this because one of the most serious effects in Australia of COVID is that we are losing people who are the bearers of Australian Aboriginal languages, and it's pretty serious.Unfortunately, we're not prioritising Aboriginal people who speak traditional languages.In Australia, it looks like Aboriginal people over 55 are in group 1B, which is the same group that elderly adults 70 or over are in, so that's a little prioritisation.I think that'll scoop up some people who speak languages.And so it's kind of an indirect thing, but it's not specifically language based.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Right.So how, um…I've heard people say that it's great to do very fine prioritising of who gets things at what time, but if that prioritising becomes so much work, that it takes longer time to roll things out, then it's sort of like a bit of a cost/benefit analysis, like how much time do you want to spend evaluating people's lining in the queue versus serving people?And evaluating whether or not someone speaks a language sounds…I guess they just go by what people say.Like, they can't…They can't really test people, surely?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah, I think you're right there.I think a good priority is just just rolling it out as fast as possible.Which fortunately, in Australia, I think we’ll do a pretty good job of.
• linkKORY - And it might be, it might also be, my guess is that the…so in the States, all of the vaccine rollout is left specifically to states.And for Native peoples who, native peoples who are part of federally recognised tribal groups, they have administration over their own vaccine rollout, as well.So my guess is that that's going to be sort of a crowdsourced community effort.I would assume, for instance, that the Standing Rock know who their fluent elders are and would say, we’ll get everyone, or just sort of all elders.You know.In America, the native view of language is not that it's, you know, we don't think of it as just language.You just think of it as:this is a cultural…this is a cultural knowledge.And so, even if someone might not be totally fluent in it, if they know enough of it that they can pass on cultural knowledge and story, then my guess is that they might include those people too…if they have enough vaccines.Yay!
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay, moving along.
• linkKORY - Cheery!
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHSBut hey, let's have some more Cheer Cheese and talk about our next.Our next story, and this is from Liz on Facebook.There is a constable, a police officer who won the award for police excellence.Last month, it's senior constable Sam Lim in Western Australia.He has won the award because he speaks 10 different languages.Nice.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Nice.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah, he's Chinese.He was born and raised in Malaysia.So he spoke Malay, Mandarin, Indonesian, Burmese, and so on.And what he's been doing is working with language communities, informing them and also dispelling misleading information about covid.
• linkKORY - Oh, that's awesome.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - That is awesome.I wish, I keep…I'm not Christian.I keep wanting to say things like "God bless" or "he's doing God works" or things like that.I need an atheist equivalent.Because…
• linkDaniel Midgley - I always…I always use Zeus for that.So I say “I swear to Zeus, If I hear one more…”
• linkKORY - Oh, that's pretty good.You could you could pick a Norse deity, Hedvig.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Oh, no!No, no.
• linkDaniel Midgley - No, no, no, no, no, that's getting co-opted.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - No, no, no, no.
• linkKORY - That's true.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Because if you walk around saying “He's doing Odin's work”, people will be like:Fuck, what a nazi.
• linkKORY - That's very true.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - The Q shaman had Norse tattoos.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Ughhh.I’m so sorry.
• linkKORY - I know.
• linkKORY - Hedvig;Yeah.Anyway.No, but this, this police officer doing this is amazing.Did he, like, outside of his regular duties to perform this service?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Well, this is kind of one of those arguments for defunding the police.What's he doing?As a police officer doing this?I'm not gonna complain about doing good stuff.But gee, we could have lots of people doing this.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Oh, yeah.
• linkDaniel Midgley - But he is in a position of trust in the community.And he just quickly translates materials into Chinese, Burmese, and he answers people's questions.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Wow.Yes, it’s amazing.
• linkDaniel Midgley - So doing good stuff.So that's our inspirational note for the news.
• linkKORY - Cheer cheese.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Cheers!LAUGHS
• linkKORY - I refuse, I will never say that trade name without completely eliding it together.
• linkDaniel Midgley - CheerCheese.
• linkKORY - And fronting it.It's going to be frontal, it's going to be a single word.
• linkDaniel Midgley - All of us.Let's say it together.1 - 2 - 3…
• linkHedvig SkirgårdKORYDaniel Midgley - CheerCheese!
• linkLAUGHTER
• linkDaniel Midgley - Thank you.
• linkDaniel Midgley - TRANSITIONAL MUSIC
• linkDaniel Midgley - We are here with lexicographer Kory Stamper, who's been working on the History of Swear Words on Netflix.Featuring Nicolas Cage.
• linkKORY - So weird.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Not bad.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Wow.So can you tell us:Nicolas Cage, good or bad?
• linkKORY - Oh, so here is the really disappointing thing, because this was filmed during covid, I met nobody else because we had to film things in accordance with covid procedure.So I don't know, I can't…you know if you hate Nicolas Cage, you can continue to hate him.If you love him, you can continue to love him.I have no opinion on Nicolas Cage, based on no personal experience.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - No, I was referring to…there's this, there's this joke in Community about whether Nicolas Cage is fundamentally…that all actors fundamentally play evil or good characters.
• linkKORY - Oh, yes!
• linkHedvig Skirgård - And Nicolas Cage is confusing because he plays both.
• linkKORY - And with equal zeal.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yeah, exactly.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - LAUGHTER
• linkDaniel Midgley - With relish!Yeah.All right, so no backstage goss, but I would like to know what it was like to film the show anyway.I mean, did folks…was that in your house or no?
• linkKORY - No, you know, that was another thing.We were gonna do at it at my house.But my house was too small to hold everybody for covid protocol.So they rented an Airbnb in the large city that I live next to, and I showed up and happened to match the chair behind the filming spot.
• linkDaniel Midgley - You did!
• linkKORY - Yeah, they're like:oh, have you been here before?I was like, no.They're like:ah, your shirt matches the chair perfectly.Look at me, we're gonna relight this.I was like:okay.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I would have thought that you would bring different shirts for different episodes.
• linkKORY - I did bring a bunch of different shirts, but you know, we ended up…I think it just worked.So well.And we also, you know, it was sort of a…we had a limited amount of time because it wasn't at my house.So it couldn't be as long as they needed to be.But it was, it was an odd thing, I think, because, you know, I was being interviewed via Zoom for covid protocols.And, and it was also a little bit odd to do.We did, you know, sort of this whole run through and they just asked me all these questions about all the swear words.And then I went home and I thought, I don't…I don't know how that fits in with any of the other stuff that they're doing.So I was really pleasantly, very pleasantly surprised when I got to see the show.And I was like:oh, okay, good, this is actually well researched.So glad.
• linkDaniel Midgley - It does.Yes, it hangs together.And it's got lots of great guests, including comedians, and cognitive scientist Ben Bergen, who's been on the show before as well.Yeah, so wow.
• linkKORY - It was good.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I was happy with it.It was a really good bit.
• linkKORY - I was pleased.I was very pleased to be involved.And, and the lighting made me look so good.That was the other thing.LAUGHTER.I was like:dang, I look so professional up there.If only they knew!LAUGHS
• linkDaniel Midgley - You do.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - You ARE a professional.
• linkKORY - I guess I am, huh?
• linkHedvig Skirgård - I think you are.
• linkDaniel Midgley - How did you know what to prepare for?Do they have the list of…so there are six episodes, and each one focuses on a different word.I guess they gave you the list and said all right, tell us what you know about thing.
• linkKORY - Yeah, basically, they, they also…you know, they had writers that were, that they could filter questions to me about, and that was really, really fun too.Because, you know, so.So for those who don't want to hear swearing, perhaps duck out now but um, so for instance, with FUCK, you know, everyone was like, Okay, I heard it's from this, you know acronymic phrase, I heard it's from this acronymic phrase, I heard it's from…And so being able to interact, even, you know, even though we're not all in a room together with the writers and saying no, it's not that, it's not that, this is what we think.So basically, I got a list of words.I knew that I would, I would be sort of the etymological expert, which is, frankly, terrifying and hysterical to me, but I'm…so I, you know, I prepared what I could.And then it was, you know, when we did the filming, it was really conversational, which was really lovely.So I had things prepared, but it was really a conversation about how these words move through the English language, how people use them differently.Why would people use these words in different ways?So it was…it was not at all what I expected, which is for it to be a little bit more like a scripted, we want you to say this and do this.It was very conversational.So it was fun.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Wow.Okay.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - That’s great.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Now to the content.The sense that I got from watching the show, was that a lot of things that we consider swears now used to be no big deal.It was either the word for sex or poop or whatever.Or it wasn't even that it started out as something else.When did these words start to have their punch?Was it in Victorian times?Can we blame the Victorians?
• linkKORY - For some of them, you absolutely can blame the Victorians.Most of the, any sort of bodily fluid or sex one pretty, like, became hyper taboo during the Victorian era.And before that, it really just depended, you know, I think, when we think of, sort of when we think of register, and when we think of tone, we are coming out of a period.Well, first, it's, it's different in different English speaking countries, right?So the C word in America is the worst thing that you could ever call someone, and it's like a friendly, rough greeting in the Commonwealth, right?So, I think that we come to these words with that kind of weight of Victorian taboo still clinging to us.And so it can be a little shocking, then, if you're…If you're going back and you're reading, you know, I think, especially with the advent of the internet, and digitisation, we get all sorts of pulpy tabloid-y kinds of stuff that was around in the sixteen and seventeen hundreds that libraries collect, and they're really profane.So…but some of these words have always had a bit of a punch.FUCK is a great example, you know.Some of its earliest uses or in this sort of, in fact, its earliest use as a verb to refer to sexual intercourse is macaronic.So it shows up in a basically, like a screed against the priests of Eli, I think is how you say that.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yes, that’s right.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Wait, wait, wait.
• linkKORY - And, and it's, it's this big screed saying, who's gonna go to heaven and who's not going to go to heaven and the…
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Wait, sorry.What is SCREED?
• linkKORY - SCREED is like a, um…
• linkDaniel Midgley - I love this.
• linkKORY - Written rant, how about that?
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Okay, yeah, okay.I googled it, it says that it is a flat piece of carton.
• linkKORY - Yes, it does also mean that.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - LAUGHSOh no!
• linkKORY - It can be…a SCREED can be a like, I'm gesturing, not that you can see me gesturing.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Amazing.
• linkKORY - It's so good that I work from home now because I'm not waving my hands around in my cubicle like I used to.Yeah, SCREED is kind of a fancy word for, like, a…basically, like a written slightly more formal rant.Basically.
• linkDaniel Midgley - A jeremiad.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Okay, thank you.
• linkKORY - Yes, it is a jeremiad.Yeah, but this, this, you know, little bit of writing says in Latin:"Non sunt in coele" which means they won't be in heaven, and then it goes on in English with, and it says, fucking the wives of Eliquia gxddbov xxkxxžt pg ifmk — D, these priests who are fucking the wives of Eli not be in heaven.But the word FUCKING is shifted over one letter.Everything shifted over one letter.So you can tell it's not an English word, starts with a G.And then as you know, g v, d, and you kind of look at it and you're like:Okay, it's clearly code, all you need to do is shift it down one letter in the alphabet to see what they were saying.So there's some indication early on that, that that word was not appropriate in certain settings, right?It wasn't just like, whatever.
• linkDaniel Midgley - The fact that they had to hide it was kind of an admission of guilt.Right?Because like, by that time, FUCK had become bad.
• linkKORY - Yeah, absolutely.And the fact that they…I mean, the other thing is, this is around 1500.There are lots of other words to use for sex at this point.The English language does not lack for words to that refer to sex.So the fact that they chose this one, and that they felt it was strong, so strong that they had to hide it in a cipher says, it's just as an interesting choice to me.That's all.But yeah, I mean, so.So lots of these words, don't…the one word that did start really as a very strong profanity, and has actually gone through semantic bleaching through the ages, so now we barely think of it as a profanity, is DAMN, which was much stronger in you know, in the 11th century and the 12th century and the 17th century, and really starts to lose its punch in the late 19th century.And now, it's just now I mean, now in America doesn't get bleeped on TV, you know, and I feel like America is very uptight and nervous about swearing.So if something gets, you know, if something's not bleeped on American television, then you might as well have it on like whatever, Peppa Pig, right?It’s nothing.
• linkDaniel Midgley - People in my religious community of origin still cling to that taboo.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Hedvig;For DAMN?
• linkDaniel Midgley - For DAMN.
• linkKORY - Yeah, I mean, can see that.There are definitely…yeah, there are there are groups that still find it to be offensive and and especially you know, especially when paired with the with the word God.They will, you know:gall darn, gosh darn, tarnation — that's a minced both for damnation.Yeah, it's still…it still exists.So even though I'm saying that America doesn't care, there are parts of…there are still groups of people who find it to be offensive.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Well, now I feel like it would be a good time to get to our listener questions.So you're ready for a lightning round?
• linkKORY - You bet.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay, Nikoli on our Discord channel asks:your favorite swear?
• linkKORY - FUCK, for sure.That's just how it is.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Wow, okay.We were gonna go for a shitgibbon, because they're so trendy and boutique.
• linkKORY - Ah, no, but you know, the thing is, is that FUCK has versatility.You can use it.You can use it in combination.You can use it as a verb, you can use it both as a positive intensifier and a negative intensifier.It can be used as an infix.It just, you know, I mean, it's just got.It’s just sort of beautifully versatile.Yeah, it's got great phonetics.I love the phonetics of it.It starts with the fricative, ends with a hard K, it's great.You know, it's everything you want in a swear.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Since you mentioned infixation, have you noticed…Have you observed any instances of 2020 being used as an infix?
• linkKORY - I have, but…I have, but only in writing.Because I did hear someone attempt to say Ab-so-2020-lutely, and someone interrupted them midway through and was like, I'm sorry, like, they didn't recognise 2020 as the infix.So yeah, I have seen it, but I've not seen it take off, in the way that you would think that it would.It might be because 2021 thus far has not been so great.So why highlight 2020 when 2021 is just 2020, Part II?
• linkDaniel Midgley - 2020a.Oh, dear.Deoksu on Facebook:"Which swear word has a really good hidden backstory?"
• linkKORY - Oh, you know, I, I'm gonna sound like a broken record.But I actually think that FUCK is a really good one, because it shows up…before it shows up as a swear, it shows up in place names.It shows up in actual people's names.And we don't have enough context to know what those things mean.It shows up in a dialect word.Like I think it's a 13th century dialect word for a kestrel, which is a kind of hawk.Windfucker.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Because he beats the wind, right?Is that it?
• linkKORY - Yes, that's exactly it!He beats the wind.Yeah.
• linkDaniel Midgley - For this, I have to…I have to just clarify.So it comes from Dutch fokken, to thrust or to beat or to hit.am I?
• linkKORY - Yeah
• linkDaniel Midgley - That’s from memory.
• linkKORY - Yes.Good memory, Daniel!Good memory.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Thanks, Kory.
• linkKORY - But it's because it shows up in names and in place names, that hints at the fact that it had some kind of a life before we adopted it as a general vocab term.And, you know, we're not sure if the sort of generalised vocab word that came to mean sex was kind of wordplay and kind of winky word play.Or if it was just if that meaning to have sex had been in existence all the time, but had never actually been recorded, because there was just enough taboo to that meaning that it wouldn't show up.It would only show up in place names, or in surnames, or in what we think might be nicknames, too.There's evidence of someone, I think, Robin Fucked By the NavelRoger Fuckebythenavele — Dand you know, who knows what that means?Does that mean that he got hit in the stomach, or he punched someone in the stomach, or that he didn't know how to have sex with someone or?Like, we just don't know.But the fact that it shows up, and shows up long ago, so it becomes associated with sex in writing, our first written uses of around 1500.But these other uses and names go back to the 13th century, they go back to the 1200s.So it had a long life before we became aware of it as swear.So I think that's like, it is truly hidden.We don't know…we don't know anything else about its life prior to about 1500.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Deoksu also asks:"What old timey swear would you like to bring back?" You mentioned TARNATION.That's a good candidate.
• linkKORY - TARNATION is a good one.I also like ODDS BODKINS.
• linkKORY - LAUGHTER
• linkHedvig Skirgård - What?
• linkKORY - 'Cause it's ridiculous.Odds bodkins.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Oh, BODKIN!I know something about BODKIN!Wait….It’s…no, I don’t.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - LAUGHTER
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh, Hedvig.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Usually I read.I read a lot of like American books, and I turned to my native speaker English husband and I asked him for words.And lately I'm reading British books, and I'm learning a lot of new words.But BODKIN I know.We talked about bodkin before,haven’t we?
• linkDaniel Midgley - I think so.Is it a thing that you wear?
• linkKORY - So it can be…a bodkin can be two different things.It started life referring to like a dagger, like a short dagger.And then it was also used to refer to like, pins, like long pins that women wore in their hair.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Like bobkin!
• linkKORY - Yeah.Or like a pin-shaped ornament that women would wear.So referred to something like long and pointed, mostly ornamental, or a dagger.And it for reasons that…Well, no, there, I do know why.But yeah, so circuitous, it makes me laugh.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yeah, I think you do.
• linkKORY - So ODDS BODKINS is a shortening of GOD'S BODKIN.You can't use God, because you can't use the name of God.So it was often shortened to ODD, which is just ridiculous to me.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Which is odd.
• linkKORY - All right.So there's your minced oath for God.It was not appropriate to to use the name of God in any kind of explosive intersubjective way.So you have ODDS.And then BODKINS referring to the head of the spear that pierced the side of Christ.So these things took on like this, this mystical quality in the Middle Ages.And, and so using the like, invoking these things, was super profane.Because you're also invoking the thing that led to the death of Jesus Christ, which was a, you know, not a great thing.So, so ODDS BODKINS is ridiculous, because it's ridiculous.It's just a ridiculous sounding word.But also, when it shows up.It is a minced oath that is almost nasty enough to be an actual swear word.So I think…I think we should bring ODDS BODKINS back.
• linkDaniel Midgley - ODDS BODKINS.So would I use that when I'm amazed or surprised?
• linkKORY - I mean, I think it's kind of a general purpose interjection.It was used mostly to, for irritation or anger, but it does show up, as it loses its its punch in the 17th and 1800s, it does sort of get to be sort of general purpose interjection.So okay, for surprise, amazement, upset, disappointment, anger, irritation.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Odds bodkins!
• linkHedvig Skirgård - You might be pleased to know that it is actually on urbandictionary.com
• linkKORY - Oh, good.We're getting there.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yeah, and they say that ODDS BODKINS is a term used by Georgia Nicholson.I don't know who it is.A very hilarious somewhat imaginary British girl.Means something is exceptionally strange.Plus, it's fun to say.
• linkDaniel Midgley - It is, it is.
• linkKORY - I mean, it is fun to say.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - "He had freakishly large hands.It was odds bodkins."
• linkKORY - Oh, lexical extension, lexical extension based on ODD, nice, huh?See, it has life already.
• linkDaniel Midgley - It's just…it's just bubbling underground.
• linkKORY - That's right.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Deoksu continues:“Is there a non swear word that just sounds dirty that you'd like to use as a minced oath?” The one that comes to my mind is HABITUAL.
• linkKORY - Ooh, that's a good one.I like NERTZ.
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHSOh, NERTZ!Let’s talk about nertz.When I was a young man, I used to play card games with my auntie, my Aunt Pat.And we played a game called Nertz.
• linkKORY - LAUGHSSo what is this card game Nertz?I don't know the card game.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Do you know Skip-Bo?
• linkKORY - Yeah, I do know Skip-Bo.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Oh, do you know the rules of Skip-Bo?Because someone gave that to us as a gift and I couldn't understand how it works.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I'll play, I'll play Skip-Bo witcha.But Nertz is Skip-Bo without taking turns.You just go.
• linkKORY - Oh, nice.Okay, that…I mean, that works.I like Nertz.I so I tend to really love the phonetics of swearing.You know, I very much like the…I like the mouthfeel of words and Nertz is one that is just, it's a ridiculous word.But it sounds slightly obscene.Like, it's not obscene at all.It's a colloquial US term that means, like, crazy.It's from, it's a humorous pronunciation of NUTS.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yes, NUTS.
• linkKORY - Yes, nuts.So, um, but because it's got the, I don't know why it's, it's that R, it's the liquid in the middle of it that makes everyone think that you're saying something slightly worse.So I like NERTZ.
• linkDaniel Midgley - It's very 40s and 50s?Isn't it?
• linkKORY - It is.Did you know, Daniel, that when the Hays Code…this is gonna get really crazy.So in the US, there was a code that was put about in the, I think it was was it the 30s or the late 20s by the movie industry to preserve the upright character of Americans by prohibiting certain things being shown on screen.So for instance, like there were rules about kisses on screen, there were rules about what women could wear on screen, who could be on screen.And there's this long list of words that were prohibited being used in the Hays Code.And of course, we got all the profanity, but NERTZ was prohibited for use in the Hays Code.And I love it, 'cause it is not even remotely profane.like not even remotely.But NERTZ was a word that you could not say, on in movies in America unless you wanted to get fined by the government.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Wow.
• linkDaniel Midgley - If I go around saying NERTZ, I'm gonna sound like my Aunt Pat.OLDER VOICE“Oh nertz!”
• linkKORY - How's that make you feel?You sound, you sound ambivalent about that.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I remember my aunt with fondness but I don't necessarily want to talk like her.
• linkKORY - Fair.That's fair.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Hmm, yeah, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to…But I do like NERTZ, so I'm gonna have to get my head around this.I’ll sort it out, I’ll sort it out.Next one from Margareth on Facebook.This is a little bit of a longy.So let's think about this.Well, this is the pragmatics of swearing.I know you dig the phonology, but let's see how this goes.“In the workplace, is a woman who swears more likely to be seen as one of the lads than women who don't?This depends on the workplace and other factors too, of course, but what I'm asking is if there's research on whether swearing is a good strategy for inclusion, or whether it can have the opposite effect.I'm a woman and I never swear, at least not in front of others because I was raised in a family where swearing wasn't accepted”— hello —“I rarely feel the need to swear although I must admit that occasionally I feel it limits the ways I have of expressing strong emotions.If I suddenly decided to add a number of swear words into my regular vocabulary, how do you think others would react?My friends, female and male colleagues, neighbors, etc.Based on your research and experience, would men and women react differently to this change?Will they start to wonder if my personality has changed or something?My vocabulary?” So this is a multi-layered question.Do you think that this is a good play?To swear a little more dropping?
• linkKORY - Oh well…
• linkHedvig Skirgård - I think…
• linkKORY - Go ahead, Hedvig.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - I was gonna say:I think there's two different effects you might encounter.One is that you change the way you are, which is a different…people are going to notice that and think about that as a change regardless of what the change is to and from.Like, if someone suddenly comes into work and starts wearing very deep plunging necklines, and very high heels and they didn't used to, regardless of what I think of high heels, necklines, I'll notice that they have just changed their behaviour, which is, you know, notable in itself.I don't think of myself as swearing very much, but my brother does.And he has always told me that I swear too much, and I try to not swear so much when I'm around his kids but…I'm lucky enough to be in, like, academia with a bunch of people who are, how do you say, value casualness I think a lot?Go around in sandals and sort of not ironed shirts and things.So for me, swearing at what I think is a medium level is considered fine, I think.But if I suddenly stopped, if I increased it, I think people would notice.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay.
• linkKORY - Yeah, I mean, I think language is context, right?So it's hard to say:Oh, yeah, you can do it or oh, no, you can't do it, because the context, you know, these contexts vary.So there is sociolinguistic research done on attitudes, male attitudes and female attitudes towards women who swear.And generally speaking, it's not favorable.Um, women are not viewed favorably by men when they swear, and they are often not viewed, I mean, not as strongly unfavorably by women, but the general consensus is the perception of a woman who swears is that she is unprofessional, etc.Now, I mean, I have strong feelings about this.Because I am a swear-y lady.And, but at the same time, I'm I am, you know…like you, Hedvig, I am very aware of my context.And so, if I'm in a context where I thinkL oh, you know, what, someone, if I swear here, if I'm in a business meeting, and I swear, someone is going to be really upset.And you can just tell that by the fact that, you know, we're in a business meeting, and no one else is swearing.If I'm in a situation where I'm in a mixed gender group, and someone starts swearing, I might join in or I might not, depending on the gender of the person swearing, what kinds of swears they're using, what the…right?It's so…it's so difficult to say:yeah you can do it, or no you can't, because it just is so contextually based.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - And also power dynamics.If you're in a group where you have more power than others, and you swear, that comes across differently.
• linkKORY - Absolutely!
• linkHedvig Skirgård - It might not make people feel safe and comfortable around you, for whatever reason.
• linkKORY - Yeah, absolutely!
• linkHedvig Skirgård - I definitely try and swear less around, like, if I'm teaching or if I have, like, people who are somehow under me hierarchically, I try to swear less.
• linkKORY - Yeah.I generally in the workplace try not to swear unless I am, you know, unless I'm, you know, we're at the watercooler.Though, you know, lexicographers don't talk to each other at work, so there is no…LAUGHTERthere is no watercooler that we would gather around!But you know, if we're just, you know, if we're hanging out after work, and I'm talking with a colleague about work, then I might swear.But it would depend on who the colleague is, and do I know them, and do…and what are we talking about?And this…usage rules, when it comes to these sorts of dynamics are almost impossible to pin down.And so I'm sorry, I don't have a good answer.LAUGHS
• linkDaniel Midgley - No, I think we are getting there.I was going to kind of say what Hedvig said, and that is that is swearing is power language.So whether it's okay to swear or not is kind of a question of:do you have the power?If you don't have the power, and you try to take the power, then somebody can say:you don't have the power.And that's, like, super bad.That's like the worst outcome that you would want because you don't want to make that explicit.So if somebody, yeah, so if you try to take it there, as a power grab, it could be really successful.It could be a really bad move.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - As always, I think it's important to remember that the attitude of “I am just who I am and other people need to adjust to me” is not feasible.We live in a society.
• linkKORY - Right.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - And as much as I enjoy….I actually don't swear that much, I think— we can interview my brother at some point, he can say differently —but if I meet someone for the first time, and they swear a lot, yeah, I'm gonna…I'm gonna read some power stuff into that, and it's gonna shape my perception a lot of them I think.
• linkDaniel Midgley - And let's also remember that women are constantly told that they do not have the power.That they are not the ones who have the power.Fuck that.
• linkKORY - Right.Amen.LAUGHS
• linkDaniel Midgley - I am, I am going to…when I hear women swearing, I'm going to make a conscious effort to adjust my attitude and say:that's okay with me.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Or just start swearing more in the same setting.I thought that's where you were gonna go.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Well, I can take it that far, right?
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Just let them take the lead and set the tone.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah, I'll follow where that person goes.LAUGHTERIf a woman is swearing, like, I say to myself, I can go that far.Yeah, and then and then if I go further than that, then I'm in unchartered waters, but I can go that far.
• linkKORY - I like that.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay.Finally, from Bob.Bob on Discord, our Discord channel.This is a reference to the IRREGARDLESS flareup of 2020.Was it Jamie Lee Curtis who got…she tweeted the mistaken impression that “the dictionary” had recently included IRREGARDLESS, and that this was a terrible 2020 kind of thing.So Bob says, “I've quoted your chapter in 'Word by Word' on IRREGARDLESS countless times.Will people who oppose it ever accept it?And the people who support it stop fucking tagging lexicographers when this damn thing shows up in feeds every six months?”
• linkKORY - Well, to the last part, Bob:no, I will be tagged forever on Twitter anytime someone…
• linkDaniel MidgleyHedvig Skirgård - Aww.
• linkKORY - I mean, this is…that's fine.This is what I get for saying that I am America's foremost IRREGARDLESS apologist.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh, good.Oh!
• linkKORY - Yeah, that's what I do.LAUGHTERYou know, here's the thing.For people to accept this means that they also have to accept a whole raft of language that our educational system and our society have taught us for centuries is uneducated, and no one wants to look uneducated.And so I think people who oppose IRREGARDLESS…first, most of those people have, at some point in their life, used IRREGARDLESS and not realised it.Because when you ask people to self-report usage, they will always tell you what they think you want to hear, not what they actually do.This is why, like, linguistic field studies is not generally going around and asking people “Do you say this word that everyone thinks is stupid?”LAUGHTERNo one's gonna answer that accurately.
• linkKORY - Um, so.So I think if we're, if people are going to…I don't think acceptance is necessarily where we need to go.I think, like, not being, like, rabidly foaming at the mouth when people use it is a better place to be.Because it's fine for words to not be accepted into Standard English.I mean, Standard English is one variety of English.And we have, you know, hundreds of other varieties of English, and all of them are fine.They all have their context, they all have their use.So if it's not accepted into Standard English, fine.But I think what I would like to see is for people to understand that it's actually a very complex word with a very complex history.And a lot of the attitudes we have against it are really just kind of classist and elitist at core.
• linkKORY - And if we really want to live in a society where we are respecting the language of the people around us, that means that we have to check our own attitudes about someone's native dialect.I gave a presentation about IRREGARDLESS a few years ago, and afterwards, someone in the audience came up to me and was like:Thank you so much.It was so interesting.They said:My dad, who's 85, natively uses IRREGARDLESS, just the way that you said people use it.And like, he's tried so hard to not use it.But he's…it's so ingrained, and he's so afraid.And like, I'm going to tell him that it's…that this is actually part of his natural way of speaking and he should keep doing it.And that's what I want.I want people to say:Okay, I don't use IRREGARDLESS, natively.I understand it's not part of Standard English, I do not need to, like, lose my mind when people use it.Or I don't need to correct people, because people who use IRREGARDLESS absolutely know that it's not part of Standard English, they've been told this their entire lives.So maybe not acceptance, but tolerance would be better, I think.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - As a second language speaker, I actually wasn't really informed that IRREGARDLESS wasn't proper— “proper” —until fairly recently.But also…I'm also good at filtering out things I don't agree with.So I might have been told and just been like, pffft whatever, I'm not gonna care.
• linkKORY - Yeah.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - But I was gonna ask, what do you think about when people sometimes phrase attitudes about language that they find somehow not suitable— instead of saying that it's not correct or it's not right —saying that it's a matter of aesthetics?Like, I've had people say to me:you know, I conjugate some verbs weakly in Swedish when they should be conjugated strongly because I like it better and whatever.And people say:you know, it's not, maybe it's not incorrect, but you know, I don't like it, but I understand you.Just like how, you know, you have a fashion preference.Like, I don't like lime green, for example.I don't shout at people when they walk down the street wearing lime green clothes, right?
• linkKORY - Right.LAUGHTER
• linkHedvig Skirgård - I am able to, maybe it's still not moving…Maybe it's still not the best scenario because you still have sort of negative attitudes.But at least they're not phrased in terms of saying that other people are grammatically incorrect.
• linkKORY - Right.I think in America at least, that's an uphill battle, simply because of the way that grammar has been framed as a sort of patriotic and moral uprightness.And that can, I mean we could have a four-hour-long conversation about, you know, American attitudes towards immigration and the English-only movement and what English gets to be English-only.But I think that, yeah, some of it in America is that you know we are, we were a nation founded by felons and Puritans.And so, you know, the felonous, felonious part of us likes to push boundaries and sort of stake our claim and this is individualism.But the puritanical part of us really likes white and black rules!Like, we just like to have things be very clear.And unfortunately, language has fallen into this right-and-wrong dichotomy in American English education.I think that's starting to change a little bit.But you know, there have been…there have been points through American history and recent American history where even just acknowledging that there's more than one kind of English has, like, caused entire school boards to shut down schools.LAUGHS
• linkKORY - And so it's, it's an uphill battle in America.But I think, you know, if we want to use IRREGARDLESS as the test case, for that, I'm happy to have it be that way.Because it's a dialect term, but honestly, it's pretty…even though people hate it so much, it's not heavily laden with sort of racial tension, which a lot of other dialect terms in English are.It's…it derived as a dialect term in sort of the upper Midwest rural area, which Americans tend to think of as, like, corn fed white people.LAUGHTERSo if we want to use IRREGARDLESS as the test case, I think it probably has the lowest hurdles to that kind of tolerance, just because it pushes fewer tender spots in American history, maybe.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah, well, I…that's what made me think that maybe you've chosen a more difficult task:Instead of trying to get people to accept IRREGARDLESS– one word –you've…you're trying to get people to confront their notions about classism.LAUGHTERAnd that sounds a lot harder.
• linkKORY - Yeah, we've not been good at that as a nation either, honestly.
• linkDaniel Midgley - This is fantastic.It's so great to talk about swearing, but also we ended on a very non-sweary note.Are there any questions that you've been getting that you wanted to bring up?
• linkKORY - The one that has cracked me up the most is…this is not so much a question, as it was a confrontation.And that was:how do your parents feel about you being on a show where all you do is swear?And I said:First, I do other things besides swear on the show.I do talk about etymology.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Ooo, is it possible to construct a sentence where every word is a swear word?
• linkKORY - Yes!
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yeah, of course there is!LAUGHTER
• linkKORY - Of course!
• linkHedvig Skirgård - How many sentences?Ahhh!How far can I…
• linkKORY - I mean, honestly.I was gonna say we could probably construct a grammatical sentence using only the word FUCK, frankly, I mean, it's possible!
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Oh, yeah!
• linkKORY - So just for clarification, for those of you who feel that my family is so horribly embarrassed, I learned to swear from my parents.So I just want everyone to know:my folks are cool with it.My dad was a construction worker.My mom worked in manufacturing.This is, you know, there are advantages to being like a blue-collar kid, and one of them is you very early…you're exposed to the wide open fields of wonder that are swearing, early on in your life.
• linkDaniel Midgley - So you've taken that energy and you've sublimated into a very monastic way.
• linkKORY - Yeah, well, you know, kids are gonna rebel how kids rebel, so…LAUGHTER
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yeah, so why didn't you rebel by becoming a super anti-swearer, I guess?
• linkKORY - You know, I did actually have a period of time in my early 20s where I didn't swear, and it felt so unnatural to be policing myself constantly.So I was in a…I was in a faith community that did not approve of swearing, and so I didn't.And it was so hard!LAUGHTER
• linkDaniel Midgley - Well, the show is The History of Swear Words.It's on Netflix.It features Kory Stamper, who's with us now.Kory, thanks for answering all these questions.
• linkKORY - Yeah, thank you!
• linkKORY - OUTRO MUSIC
• linkKORY - We are doing Words of the Week with Kory Stamper.Kory, you brought a word for us.
• linkKORY - I did.It's kind of a depressing word.I'm sorry.It's been…it's…it's been a week, y'all.
• linkDaniel MidgleyHedvig Skirgård - Oof, yeah.
• linkKORY - Yeah, so the word I'm bringing, it's not quite a word.It's a digraph, it's a phrase…is “big lie”.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oooo, good one.
• linkKORY - Which has been seen a lot in the American press in the last week in particular, capitalised:Big capital L Lie.And this is really fascinating for a couple of different reasons.So the capitalisation should tell you that this refers to a specific thing.And it in fact does.BIG LIE actually traces back to theories of Nazi Germany about…if you just…you can convince people of Big Lie if you repeat it enough.Hitler used it, and then sort of Joseph Goebbels most famously said, “if you tell a lie often enough, people will believe it” And this became known as the Big Lie.It referred specifically to sort of the propagandistic ideologies behind Naziism.And then it just kind of dropped out of use.But we have seen the Big Lie— capitalised —used a lot in really the last eight months, once Donald Trump started hinting that the election would not be a fair election.You started seeing it pop up occasionally in print, but in the last two weeks, in particular, it's everywhere in American press.Capitalised.And there's been an explanation often with this, why are we capitalising this?What is The Big Lie?The Big Lie is a big propagandistic statement made that that undermines faith in government.
• linkKORY - Now, what's really fascinating on another part of this, is that in America, at least, news outlets are really really loath to call anything a lie.They don't use the word LIE very often, because by the…so there's a there's a style book called The Associated Press Stylebook.And they're kind of the place that all newspapers look to for word choice and for style questions.And the Associated Press has said very, very clearly, you cannot call something a lie, or say that a person is lying, unless you can prove that they are intentionally miscommunicating.Or intentionally giving disinformation or misinformation.So the weight of the use of LIE has really been on intention, and how can you prove the intention of anybody?Right?So the American press has really steered away from using LIE.And now, now it's everywhere, which, granted, it's in this digraph, it's in this phrase, but the fact that LIE is appearing so much in the press here is really shocking if you're a word nerd who follows these patterns, because it signals that, you know, the press is not only is saying:Okay, like the intention is clearly there, and so you can use it now.But now they're also placing it in terms of propaganda, which is a really bold statement for the American press to make.So that's my Word of the Week.Big Lie.
• linkDaniel Midgley - That is such a good word.And you know, it just does speak to the fact that I think the press is done.They are done playing.They're just calling it straight.And we've heard all kinds of synonyms, like, "without evidence", or "baselessly claimed".
• linkKORY - Yeah, "unsubstantiated".Unsubstantiated rumors.Yeah.You've seen a lot of that."Mis-statement" has been used a lot in the last five years.Which is…you know, I mean, it's hard because I understand…I mean, the libel laws in America are not as bad as they are in other countries, but you don't want to, you don't want to say something that's gonna get your newsrooms sued.But at the same time, it's kind of weaselly to just say, well, it's an unsubstantiated claim or it's a, you know, it's a possibly mistakenly.Like, well, no, it's clearly a mistake, and it's not a possible mistake.And so, yeah, it's been, it's been an interesting week for the word LIE.I think the idea of pulling Big Lie and harkening back to propaganda also seats it in a really different space too.Because in that way, it almost…it almost doesn't absolve, but it at least gives a point where you can understand how people would believe this, because that's what propaganda is meant to do.Propaganda is meant to convince people of things.So the thing that's interesting about Big Lie, is it also squarely places, the blame for misinformation on, you know, government officials who are saying this, not necessarily the people who stormed the Capitol, or the people who post on Facebook or things like that.It's the people who are continuing to propagate this belief that the election was stolen.So that's also an interesting shift, right?It absolves some people of believing it, because that's what a Big Lie is supposed to do.It's supposed to get people to believe it.Sorry, that was so un-cheery.LAUGHTER
• linkDaniel Midgley - No, that was, that was good.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - No, but it’s a word from the week for sure.
• linkKORY - It is.It is cheerless cheese for sure.
• linkDaniel Midgley - No cheese for you.I’m giving you zero out of four cheese.My word was similarly cheery:ORWELLIAN.
• linkKORY - Oh, yeah.
• linkDaniel Midgley - So it seems that US Republican senator from Missouri and member of the Sedition Caucus, Josh Hawley— Sedition Caucus was another one. I wanted to do that one but I worked it in here —He got his book deal yanked, because he took the lead in an attempt to overturn the will of the voters and install Donald Trump as dictator for life.He called losing his book deal "a direct assault on the First Amendment." He said he was being cancelled by the left and that this could not be more Orwellian.Thoughts?
• linkKORY - Orwell got published.
• linkKORY - LAUGHTER
• linkDaniel Midgley - He got a book deal.I should also mention that after Twitter suspended Donald Trump's account, Donald Trump Jr.announced that "free speech no longer exists in America." He said this, he tweeted this to his six and a half million followers.And he said "We are living in Orwell's 1984." So there's a few people mentioning Orwellian-ism.
• linkKORY - Ah, I just I…So I'll state the obvious, which is:Orwell's 1984 and the adjective ORWELLIAN tend to refer to totalitarian states, not private organisations or corporations.But what's interesting is…It's clever, though.It's clever to have people in government claim something as Orwellian.Because it communicates a tone.It definitely makes people…it riles people up, and it makes people think that in fact, the media is controlling things, which, you know, is not true.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - I mean, it touches on another conversation that's really hard to have, and I don't think we should have at this moment, because there's too much else going on.But this discussion about whether Big Tech is providing a public service and should therefore be…I agree, I also think that like being banned on Twitter is not, you know, getting your free speech revoked.But I mean, it's more similar to it than in the '80s when someone didn't publish your column in a newspaper.
• linkKORY - Yeah, I mean, the democratisation of speech through social media and the access…This…Yeah, we don't…we're not gonna talk about this because I…yeah….It’s late where Daniel is, and…
• linkKORY - LAUGHTER
• linkHedvig Skirgård - But it made me think about, as well, because when you first said Big Lie, it made me think of Big Bad and Big Tech, and whatever BIG is doing, because…
• linkDaniel Midgley - Big Pharma.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - There's something going on there.I thought at first, when you said Big Lie it was going to be similar to Big Bad, but it's not.
• linkKORY - Oh, yeah.
• linkDaniel Midgley - It's so weird to me that the authoritarian right has taken on Orwell as some kind of free speech totem.I mean, he fought in the Spanish Civil War against the fascists.
• linkKORY - LAUGHSRight.
• linkDaniel Midgley - But now they're arguing that censorship is Orwellian.But 1984 isn't about censorship.It's not really.It's about manipulating language to influence thought.
• linkKORY - Right.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Kind of like referring to cancel culture, chen what you mean is:everybody suddenly deciding that Josh Hawley is a dangerous jerk who shouldn't be mistaken for a serious thinker.
• linkKORYHedvig Skirgård - Right.Yeah.LAUGHTER
• linkHedvig Skirgård - And the book is also a great example of how— I've been thinking a lot about this. And it's unfortunately also a downer, but just rational —You can do a lot of things with rational argumentation.And you can work based on premises and prove a lot of things.And in the Orwell book, they prove a world to their citizens that works in a certain way, that makes them act in a certain way.And there is, I don't know, I just…I don't…I don't know if arguing with these people is gonna work.They've built up these…I don't know, I don't know what they'll try to either…Sorry, this is very downer.
• linkDaniel Midgley - No, this is good.This is good.So what I've said…I think I said this the week that Trump got elected, I didn't know how right I was.Trumpism is an authoritarian cult.The best way to understand Trumpism is as a religion.And I have enough experience talking to religious people to know that…and being, having once been religious myself, you couldn't have argued me out of the church.You couldn't have done it.I would have gone straight back to my support community for intellectual bulwarking.Because it gives you something, you know?It does something for you.It gives you a place in a narrative.It has its own media ecosystem that you can go to.You can deny reality for a really long time.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Some people are saying that this upcoming inauguration, everything is going to be an interesting point for the whole QAnon conspiracy community where maybe there is a little bit of an out for some people, because some of the prophecies will be…turn out to not be true.Because I was thinking…I was gonna suggest my Word of the Week be THE STORM.But I think
• linkDaniel Midgley - Ooh
• linkHedvig Skirgård - I wasn’t sure how much of a downer this section could be.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Dang, Hedvig, you're scaring me.
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHTER
• linkHedvig Skirgård - I just…it's just…it's fascinating and terrifying to try and understand the process of thinking that goes behind these actions.And I have the benefit of not being an American citizen and being able to have some distance to it.I know that's not something I share with everyone on this show.
• linkDaniel Midgley - WEAK CHUCKLE OF DESPAIRYeah, and by the time I edit and post this, it's gonna be like one day away from the Inauguration and Trump leaving for good.Oh, it's getting closer and more terrifying!
• linkDaniel Midgley - There is, there is another another couple of words that I want to get to though one of them kept coming up with reference to Trump's encouragement of a violent mob destroying the US Capitol.And it was to EGG ON.I kept seeing EGG ON.He was egging the crowd on.What’s up with eggs?Eggs??
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Has it got to do with the swords?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Nope.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Oh.
• linkDaniel Midgley - What swords?!
• linkHedvig Skirgård - The pointy side of a sword in Swedish is EGG.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Is it???
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yeah.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh!Okay I changed my mind.Yes, it's totally that.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yeessss!
• linkKORY - Oh, oh!
• linkDaniel Midgley - Because when you have the pointy EDGE of a sword, that is what it comes from.So it comes from Old Norse EGGJA, to goad on, or incite, from EGG, which was the edge.So when you're egging a crowd on, you're pushing them to the edge as Trump in fact, did…and then right over.
• linkKORY - Amazing.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Isn't that great?
• linkKORY - That's so good.Och.Old Norse is so great.
• linkDaniel Midgley - It is.The part that I love about this is that we had EGGJA, and then you know, these English speakers who didn't know Norse, after a while they just said:well, we're gonna make it an egg.We're gonna egg someone on.So what this is, it's an eggcorn!
• linkKORY - GASP
• linkDaniel Midgley - With actual eggs!
• linkKORY - Oh my gosh.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yes!
• linkKORY - We've reached eggcorn singularity!Amazing!
• linkDaniel Midgley - Eggcorn-ception!!For those who don't know, an eggcorn is a mistake that makes sense, which this one is.
• linkKORY - Mhm.Amazing.Love it.I love it.
• linkDaniel Midgley - All right.And finally, SWOVERALLS I came across this term a couple of times on Twitter.What are swoveralls, anyone guess?
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Is it the combination of swervesvervand overall?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Of what?
• linkHedvig Skirgård - To swerve.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh, right.You're driving, you see some overalls in the street.LAUGHTERYou got to get around those things instead of running them over, because there could be a person in there.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - I don’t know.
• linkKORY - Is it a blend of SWEATS and OVERALLS?I'm trying to think of what we're all wearing, since none of us is going into the office.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yes, that is what it is.
• linkKORY - Is it?!
• linkDaniel Midgley - It’s a combination of sweatpants…it’s overalls made of sweatpants material.
• linkKORY - Oh, now I want them very badly.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I think I'm promoting a business.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - How is that not just a…what was that thing that was so popular and then went away?Like, onesies or what did they call them scoo?Scoo?
• linkDaniel Midgley - They were rompers.
• linkKORY - Rompers, we had…
• linkHedvig Skirgård - No no no, the S one.
• linkDaniel Midgley - What??
• linkKORY - The S one…
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Snuggle, snoogle, snoog…
• linkKORY - Oh, snuggly!
• linkDaniel Midgley - Snuggly!
• linkKORY - The snuggly.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - It was a garment.
• linkKORY - Yeah, it was basically like a blanket that had snaps and a zipper on it.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yeah.
• linkKORY - And you could like enfold yourself.It was called…in the States it was called the Snuggly which is a trade name I believe.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - No I think it's Snuggie.
• linkKORY - Oh Snuggie?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Snuggie?
• linkKORY - I clearly never had one, because if I did, I would be able to tell you what it was called.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Or Snuggly.Oh no, there's both.Oh, no.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - LAUGHTER
• linkDaniel Midgley - So we could, we could combine all three.We could have like a snuggly made of swoveralls.And it could be like a….I need a portmanteau.Three-way portmanteaus are hard!It’s a sw-ug-liall!
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHTER
• linkKORY - Well, now that just sounds gross, Daniel.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay, but it's not as bad as Cheercheese.
• linkKORY - It's true.
• linkKORY - LAUGHTER
• linkHedvig Skirgård - I'd like to recommend all of our listeners, as a very very ingrained robe person, I recommend getting many different kinds of robes.And just wearing that at all times.You got your thin robes.You got your more sturdy robes.You got your, like, Japanese inspired robes that have like pockets inside the sleeves.I'm wearing a bathrobe right now.Just robes is the best lockdown life.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Robe it up.
• linkKORY - Yeah, I think that's great.I have had a long conversation with friends of mine about finding the best soft pants, which is one of those those sort of amazing terms that that only the pandemic could give.You know, soft pants being, like, comfortable pants you wear at home, and of course hard pants then being business trousers that you wear in the office.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Hard pants.
• linkKORY - Hard pants.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Oh.We call sweatpants SOFT PANTS in Swedish, so we're one step ahead a ya.
• linkKORY - Yeah, I was gonna say the Swedes are so much better at so many things than America.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - But we don’t have hard pants.We don’t have hard pants.I like HARD PANTS, that’s very good.
• linkKORY - You like HARD PANTS?HARD PANTS is a great term.It's one of those that you say it, and you know exactly what you mean by it.Like, oh yes, HARD PANTS.They're not actually hard, but yeah.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Jeans are hard pants.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Is that a retronym?
• linkKORY - Oh, it might be.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I think it is.
• linkKORY - Yeah, a retronym with a little bit of lexical distinguishing.Yeah.ǁ ǁ.Mhm.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - ǁ ǁ.
• linkKORY - Nice.
• linkDaniel Midgley - So BIG LIE, ORWELLIAN, EGG ON, and SWOVERALLS:our Words of the Week.
• linkDaniel Midgley - We got a couple of comments.From Diego on Patreon:“Hello again, thought you might find this interesting, and it might inspire you to see what the Word of the Year was in other languages." We have mentioned the Real Academia Española, kind of like the Academie Francaise, but for Spanish.Their word of the year was CONFINAMENTO, which is confinement, but in a special lockdown sort of way.
• linkDaniel Midgley - That's that one.And then Raya on Patreon, and this is about our episode, Mailbag of Spedron, “Hi!Great episode especially the final discussion regarding vowels and accents.Just a small comment though, you mentioned that Arabic and Hebrew are written with no vowels, which is incorrect.They're both written with long vowels only.Short vowels are also written, but as diacritics are vocalisations, little markings above and below the letters.For example, the word for book in Arabic KITAB is written as the equivalent of K-T-A-B.Anyway, I'm planning on researching Arabic dialects and this got me thinking about the difference in vowels across them, something that I never thought about because mostly they differ in lexical items and morphology.So thanks.” Cool, huh?
• linkHedvig Skirgård - But I thought you could also…maybe, okay, I'm not gonna pick a fight with one of our…LAUGHTERBut I thought that sometimes there are Arabic styles and Hebrew styles where you can delete the diacritics as well.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I have seen it that way.But I'm not well versed enough to fight back on this one.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Let's…let's figure it out.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Raya continues:"Also, how can I join your discord channel?” Riah you can do that by heading over to Patreon and signing up at the supporter level that's patreon.com/becauselangpod.And you get bonuses, like earlier this month, I played Blabrecs with some of our fabulous patrons, although we had to make up the rules as we went along.It was fun, and we're gonna make it a regular thing.So Kory, have you heard of Blabrecs?
• linkKORY - I believe I have!Is this the Scrabble-like game where you only use non-words that could pass morphologically as words?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Precisely!
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHTER
• linkKORY - Excellent.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I thought we were gonna have to score like traditional Scrabble, but then I realised that was too hard.And then we figured out that if you could just get a word past the AI, that was one point…
• linkKORY - Okay.
• linkDaniel Midgley - …and if you used all your letters, that was two points.
• linkKORY - Excellent.You gotta keep it simple because you're going to spend all your time trying to think of morphologically passible non-words.
• linkDaniel Midgley - It's true.I did.LAUGHTERKory Stamper, thank you so much for hanging out with us.This has been so much fun!
• linkKORY - Thank you.This has been great.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yeah!
• linkDaniel Midgley - And we want to talk to you again when you get more books out, because I like your books, you’re really funny.
• linkKORY - Thank you.I will let you know.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yeah!I saw that Daniel had written more questions for us to ask you, and we didn't ask them.So that's great.We'll have more next time.
• linkKORY - Excellent.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh, yeah.
• linkDaniel Midgley - OUTRO MUSIC
• linkHedvig Skirgård - If you want to find out if I will pick a fight with you if you become a Patreon, why not become a Patreon and find out?Our next episode is a Patreon-only bonus episode.It's a Mailbag.And if you want to hear it the minute comes out instead of waiting three months then ldjfldjfl, become a Patreon supporter.Also, this is a special announcement.
• linkHedvig Skirgård - DANIEL AND HEDVIG MAKE BEEPING SOUNDS
• linkHedvig Skirgård - All of our patrons:check your mailbox.You should have received something from us physically in your mailbox.And we would very much like to know if you have received it, so please let us know.Send us pictures of you holding up the things you get.That would be lovely.One of the reasons it's not coming is because, 2020, pandemic, everything is not going as it should.We would have liked for you to get these things earlier, but that didn't happen and we're grateful for your patience.We'd like to give a special shout out to our Patrons who are currently supporting us and if you want to be included this list, go ahead and join this lovely group of people.They are:Termy, Chris B, Lyssa, The Major, Chris L, Matt, Damien, Helen, Bob, Jack, Kitty, Lord Mortis, Elías, Michaelmikeɪel), Michael [maɪkəl— one of the two, let me know or we could fight about it —Larry, Binh, Kristofer, Dustin, Andy, Maj, Nigel, Kate, Jen, Nasrin, Nikoli, Ayesha, Emma, Moe, Andrew, James, Shane, and new this week:Eloise and Rodger!Thank you, all.
• linkDaniel Midgley - You can also send us questions for the upcoming Mailbag episode, we are becauselangpod on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Mastodon, Patreon and even…Tik-Tok?Or you can send us a retrograde email hello@becauselanguage.com.Now, just a note:I have declared email bankruptcy from last year.So if you still have a question, and I didn't get to it and it's still important, please send it again.We would love it if you would please tell all your intelligent and kind friends about us.If you have friends that are, like, super into their cheese names, maybe don't tell them.
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHTER
• linkDaniel Midgley - You can write us a review in all the review-y places, or you could even hunt down people who asked for podcast recommendations on social media and tell them about us.Because that's what The Sandman is doing @storiessandman.Like, seriously in the last week, he's been recommending us to like 7 or 11 or 12 different people.It's fantastic.What a ledge.Anyway, if you do those things, it'll help people find us and that makes us feel very happy in our hearts.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Our music has been written and performed by Drew Krapljanov, who is a member of Ryan Beno and Dideon's Bible.Their second EP, cleverly titled EP2,LAUGHTERis now available on Bandcamp.Thanks for listening.See you next time.Because Language.
• linkDaniel Midgley - SILENCE
• linkHedvig Skirgård - Yay!
• linkKORY - Wooo!
• linkDaniel Midgley - Hey, that was awesome!Thank you, Kory!