57 - Potluck

526 turns

• linkDaniel Midgley - There we go.Ah…
• linkDaniel Midgley - THUD
• linkBen Ainslie - SCREAMS
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHS
• linkBen Ainslie - Great entry.We're good.Everything's fine.
• linkBECAUSE LANGUAGE THEME MUSIC
• linkDaniel Midgley - Hello, and welcome to this very special live edition of Because Language, a show about linguistics, the science of language.My name is Daniel Midgley.And with me now, my pal and podcasting partner for the past 27 years.CHUCKLESIt's Ben Ainslie.Ben, what's it been like doing the show for the last 41 years?
• linkBen Ainslie - I like the new game of…since I've been getting it wrong, we'll just never ever get the right number.We'll say every number but the right number.That's good, I like that.I can work with that.
• linkDaniel Midgley - And it's only going to get worse, as the years roll on.
• linkBen Ainslie - It's been a wonderful 13 years and I look forward to 13 happy more.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Maybe for a while, we'll just like really low ball it, and it'll be like, one year.
• linkBen Ainslie - My second year is going to be so good, you guys!Sophomore effort!Let's do it.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Can't wait for our second season of the show.
• linkBen Ainslie - Me too.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Thank you for being here.Hedvig, sadly, can't be with us for this one;she is deep in Wedding World.The real wedding this time.
• linkBen Ainslie - Yes.The ceremony.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Does it seem like she's married the same guy three times?
• linkBen Ainslie - LAUGHSCovid has caused us as a society to do a lot of weird things.I feel like on the spectrum, the ranking of weird shit because of covid, getting married multiple times is like entry-level.This is super basic covid weirdness.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah, it is, but that's a nice weirdness, as well.
• linkBen Ainslie - Oh, totally!
• linkDaniel Midgley - If you gotta have something weird happen, just get married a bunch of times.Nobody will know.
• linkBen Ainslie - I wish nothing but love and affection and all the good stuff, all the gooey sentimental stuff for their, like, third wedding.I do wonder— and I've not had a chance to ask her this —she might be experiencing a bit of wedding fatigue by now?
• linkLAUGHTER
• linkBen Ainslie - I am not sure.A lot of people experience it in their first wedding!So, by number three…
• linkDaniel Midgley - It's terrible!Weddings are hard.
• linkBen Ainslie - But, look, we have compensated— some might argue drastically over-compensated —for her absence by packing in dozens of human beings to this show.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yes, they are.They are here.We are having a great time talking with our great patron friends from Patreon.We already have a great time just throwing around topics on Discord, talking about language and social things and stuff.They bring us so many great stories and words that sometimes we like to have them all on and tell us about their stories and news in their own words.So that's what this episode is about.It's a potluck episode.If I say potluck, does that mean the same thing to everybody?Does anybody else have a different term for when everyone brings a dish?
• linkBen Ainslie - Ooh, this is fun, yeah.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Feel free to unmute yourself.Yeah.Tell us what it is?Or…okay.Lord Mortis says, "Bring and Share." Okay.I don't know if that's official or did you just make that up?Anybody else?Is it potluck for everyone?
• linkBen Ainslie - I sometimes had it called "bring a plate" as well.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Which causes no end of confusion for English learners or people from other places because of…
• linkBen Ainslie - I've come with my empty plate!LAUGHS
• linkDaniel Midgley - Why did they…Did they not have enough plates?
• linkLAUGHTER
• linkBen Ainslie - These poor westerners, whatever is the problem?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Hmm, exactly.Okay, potluck it is.So let's get started on the new…Wait.Ben, you've got to do the thing, I can't do this properly.
• linkBen Ainslie - Well, I think it is about time that we find out what's been going on in the world of linguistics in the week gone past.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh, those beautiful words.All right, our first story comes from Lord Mortis.Where are you, Lord Mortis?Unmute yourself and…
• linkLord Mortis - Getting my things ready.
• linkDaniel Midgley - There you go.
• linkBen Ainslie - MIMICKING~I'm organising my shit. Give me a second.~
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHSVery good.Nice to see the two of you.Let's see.So, new emoji.What's going on?We always love when the new emoji pop in.
• linkLord Mortis - Yeah.So I read Ars Technica pretty regularly, and an article popped up that, given Because Language is a propensity for emoji hijinks, I thought would be interesting.
• linkBen Ainslie - Emojinks.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Emojinks.
• linkIt's a list of potential new emoji, including one that caught my eye and the Ars Technica's author's eye, a Horrible Goose.It's not specifically the Horrible Goose.
• linkBen Ainslie - CHUCKLES
• linkDaniel Midgley - It's not?
• linkLord Mortis - But it's not definitely A goose.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay.What makes the goose horrible, I wanted to know.
• linkLord Mortis - There is an Australian game called Untitled Goose Game, which came out two years ago.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh.
• linkLord Mortis - And the tagline for the game is, "It's a lovely morning in the village and you are a Horrible Goose."
• linkBen Ainslie - Hmm.
• linkLord Mortis - CHUCKLESAnd essentially, it's been called Metal Goose Solid, or a goose stealth action game…
• linkLAUGHTER
• linkLord Mortis - …in which you are a goose and you have to perform tasks, which often cause people unrest in a village.
• linkBen Ainslie - Having played Untitled Goose Game, I really love how appropriate and deeply unhelpful those descriptions are.LAUGHS
• linkDaniel Midgley - Do you just waddle around and fuck shit up?Is that what's going on?
• linkLord Mortis - Pretty much.
• linkBen Ainslie - Yes.
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHSVery cool, all right.I've got the list here but what Lord Mortis, what was on your mind?Which one spoke to you?Which one do you think you'll be using?
• linkLord Mortis - If you look at the picture attached to the article, there is a Wi-Fi symbol down the bottom.And there was one to the left of this Wi-Fi symbol, and I have no idea what that is.LAUGHS
• linkBen Ainslie - Oh, let's have a look.
• linkLord Mortis - The rest of them make sense to me.Although Kitty and I aren't sure whether the pea one is specifically edamame, or just peas in a pod in general.The article does not really go into what that specific symbol is.They do go on to say that this is, like, a draft set.This is, like, a set that they're thinking about, including it hasn't been ratified at the…I'm sure you would know more about the emoji process than I do.But these are prospective new emoji.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I know that they're friggin' sick of it, they don't want to do it anymore.This is for version 15 of Unicode and they've got 31 new emoji characters.That's not many.I think it's the smallest one that they've ever recommended at any given time.For some reason, I want to say that that unknown symbol is something having to do with the Sikh religion, but I'm not…urg…I could be getting that totally wrong.
• linkBen Ainslie - No, it immediately fired off something for me as well, and I was trying to figure it out in my head.Is it Baháʼí, is it some kind of Persian, is it Zoroastrianism?I feel like it is a religious symbol of some kind.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Help us out people, we're really flailing here.We should get this right.Also…
• linkBen Ainslie - Help the dumb whiteys.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Sorry!Ahere's the vibrating face or the shaking face, I think that one's going to be…in the proposal, it could represent shaking in anticipation or excitement:I can't wait to see you.It could be disorientation.It could be emotionally shaken:I am shooketh.
• linkBen Ainslie - Having just consumed a coffee, I feel like a lot of people are going to use it for over-caffeination.
• linkDaniel Midgley - That's a good point.Sorry…Ben, do you get shooketh over coffee?
• linkBen Ainslie - I don't at all.But I feel it's at the point now, sort of pop culturally, where even though most people don't have a, like, sincere or severe reaction to coffee and caffeine.We just don't claim we do.When you're on your third or fourth cup of the day be like, "Oh, I can't have another cup of coffee because I'll start shaking," I don't.And I could have another cup of coffee.What I'm really saying is:I would prefer not to have another cup of coffee now.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I can have three coffees and go to sleep.
• linkBen Ainslie - Yeah.Well, you are American.You guys have a different relationship to the coffee.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah, but I used to be Mormon.I had a really, really weird relationship to coffee!
• linkBen Ainslie - True.True.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Anyway, other emoji that are in this set:high fives.I'm so glad that this hands-together emoji is now unambiguously prayer and we will have real high fives emojis.A moose head, a ginger root.Everyone loves that one.except me.Maracas, the Wi-Fi symbol— I can't believe we didn't have a Wi-Fi symbol —A jellyfish and the aforementioned Horrible Goose.
• linkBen Ainslie - I want to be clear to our listeners as well.It's just a goose.LAUGHS
• linkDaniel Midgley - It's just a goose.It could be a nice goose!
• linkBen Ainslie - Just a goose.Yeah.
• linkDaniel Midgley - We don't know!
• linkBen Ainslie - Look…
• linkLord Mortis - Are gooses nice?Are geese nice?I feel like the implication…LAUGHS
• linkBen Ainslie - Look, Lord Mortis is absolutely correct.Geese are an avatar of actual Satan.They are a deeply unlikable creature.I am not advocating that we harm geese in any way.But in the hierarchy of animal interactions when I am sort of like in the agricultural zone, if I come across a goose, they have right of way.Like, I am not fucking with geese.They are definitely an animal that I'm just happy to give a wide berth to.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Swans are also satanic, but the thing is if you run up against a swan, you came to their territory.You asked for this.So, they're I think more relentless.Let's see, I'm still surprised that there's no cymbals.How am I supposed to make a joke and do a rimshot without a drum and a cymbal?
• linkBen Ainslie - CHUCKLESI did not understand which kind of cymbals you meant.I'm like…
• linkDaniel Midgley - There's no symbols!
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGTER
• linkBen Ainslie - They are all symbols, Daniel!
• linkDaniel Midgley - They're all symbols!
• linkBen Ainslie - Literally everything is a symbol!CHUCKLES
• linkDaniel Midgley - Not necessarily;some of them are iconic in the Peircean sense.
• linkBen Ainslie - Okay.Fair enough.Yes, if we want to get into the semiotics…sign, signifier, blah, blah, blah.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Does anybody else have any comments on the emoji?Unmute yourself and speak them now.
• linkARIAFLAME - One word I've heard on streaming and so forth about the Horrible Goose is HONKITUDE which is a sort of really aggressive attitude, that sometimes the goose really represents.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I feel that needs to be not HONKITUDE, because that could be like being the state of a honky like me.But maybe honk…
• linkARIAFLAME - But definitely with an I.H-O-N-K-I.
• linkDaniel Midgley - How about honk-titude, to make the attitude more clear.
• linkBen Ainslie - Ah, I like that.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I can't bend these things, but I'm trying to bend it a little bit.
• linkO TIM - It's going to bleach anyway.You're going to lose that extra syllable.
• linkDaniel Midgley - That’s true.
• linkBen Ainslie - Yeah, it's true.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Thank you, Ariaflame.Okay, it's time for our next story.I want to go to rude gestures and emoji from O Tim.
• linkBen Ainslie - OWITH HIGH PITCHTim.
• linkDaniel Midgley - O Tim.
• linkO TIM - I had a brother who served in Afghanistan and he was laughing about the fact that news media were programmed…loving the fact that everybody over there was giving everybody the thumbs up and not knowing what it meant there.
• linkBen Ainslie - Ah, yep.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Mhm.So, what's the range here?There's "sit on this" or "number one" or "the best"?
• linkO TIM - Yeah, it means everything.And apparently now, if you give two of them in a text, it means fuck off.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Right.
• linkO TIM - According to some story I read.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Right.
• linkO TIM - I was like, "Holy cow." It's getting used a lot more passive aggressively than I was expecting it to be.
• linkDaniel Midgley - And I wonder if that's a little bit like saying…if you say "cool," that means it's cool.But if you say, "Cool-cool," that might mean it's not cool.And if you say, "Oh, so you're going to be like that?Cool cool cool cool cool." The more cools, the more is potentially sarcastic it is.
• linkO TIM - The good, good, good.
• linkDaniel Midgley - CHUCKLESO Tim is referencing an article from the mirror.co.uk, not one of our usual stops.There are loads and loads of articles about how emoji mean different things in different places.Were there any others from that article that you noticed specifically?
• linkO TIM - No, there were a few that came up in another one.I'm an American, but I do know enough to go like this in England rather than the other way.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Ah.Classic.
• linkO TIM - I'm sorry, for our listeners, that's the V-shape with the first two fingers and whether your palm is facing toward you or away from you makes a world of difference.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Sure does!
• linkBen Ainslie - I've got to say, am I alone in that…I just don't use gestures very much?Like, any of these gestures.I don't throw out the peace sign.I don't give people the finger.I'm just not a very gestural person.Is that just me?
• linkDaniel Midgley - What about emojily?
• linkO TIM - I don't know.There's one thing that I find that I use a lot more gestures while I'm on Zoom than I ever do while speaking, just corresponding or speaking to somebody in the same room with me.I haven't figured that out.
• linkBen Ainslie - On Zoom, everyone's Italian.
• linkDaniel Midgley - And I could see why because you've got a situation where in spoken conversation face to face, we're constantly going "Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh." Whereas that can cause a train wreck or a little disconnect in Zoom speech.And so I notice I just tend to stay quiet a lot more and just be doing the hand gestures.
• linkBen Ainslie - I also think— I'm going to just completely contradict what I just said a second ago, which is —something like the thumbs up, which I think in Western culture is pretty ingrained as like a kind of universal.A lot of people conceive of it as similar to like a nod or a shake.In a country where you might not know a whole lot of the language, a simple thumbs up to mean like okay, or I assent or whatever, is probably pretty common.So, it is actually probably one of the few, I think, that could land you in a bit of hot water.Whereas some of the other stuff, I feel like:man, you'd have to get quite unlucky to be putting a finger around and underneath and accidentally, like, insult this person's mother and all the rest of it.Whereas the thumbs up I reckon could probably, yeah, it could sink you relatively easily.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I've been in Australia for long enough that I've started to notice shifting in hand gestures.For example, people in the '80s used to point at the road to hitchhike.
• linkBen Ainslie - Really?Thumbs down?
• linkDaniel Midgley - No, pointing with the index finger at the road, like this.
• linkBen Ainslie - Oh, okay.
• linkDaniel Midgley - And that meant, "I'd like a ride." Whereas, I don't see a lot of hitchhikers anymore, but I noticed a bit of a shift toward actual thumbs up, which was a rude gesture in Australia, considered rude and now much less so.I feel like the thumbs up in Australia…What do you find, Ben?
• linkBen Ainslie - I'm clearly much younger than you because I have no conception of the thumbs up being a rude gesture in Australia.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay.Okay.
• linkBen Ainslie - Sarcastically, is that what you mean?Like, if someone gives a thumbs up, it was like an Australian way of being like, "Oh, yeah, good job, dickhead?"
• linkDaniel Midgley - No, it was phallic.
• linkBen Ainslie - Yeah, right!
• linkDaniel Midgley - Mm-hmm.
• linkBen Ainslie - Wow.You learn something new every day.
• linkDaniel Midgley - And so, it is in other places as well.I have this book called Rude Hand Gestures of the World.I should have brought it.But anyway, sorry, go ahead, O Tim.
• linkO TIM - Well, I was just going to say, too…another article that I read indicated that thumbing a ride in Ind…Asia, rather, will tell the cars to keep on going.
• linkBen Ainslie - Right.
• linkO TIM - They are not going to stop for you.
• linkBen Ainslie - Just like, pass on by.
• linkO TIM - "Keep going, get out of here.I'm not…" Yeah.
• linkBen Ainslie - Yeah."I don't need help."
• linkDaniel Midgley - I don't know what's happening?I'm the worst hitchhiker ever, suddenly.
• linkO TIM - CHUCKLES
• linkDaniel Midgley - Personally, I love how emojis can be misunderstood, in the same way as real gestures can.You put them out there and then they go into the world and a worldwide audience and people might understand, maybe not.
• linkO TIM - Somehow that works that way with words as well.
• linkBen Ainslie - Yeah, true.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Ah!True.
• linkBen Ainslie - The classic grimace.😬
• linkO TIM - CHUCKLES
• linkDaniel Midgley - Thank you, O Tim.Let's move on to a story about Twitter bots and accessibility.PharaohKatt, this one's yours.
• linkPharaohKatt - Yep, okay.I found this one while on Twitter, so I guess that makes sense.Basically, Twitter has added an alt text feature.But it wasn't always easy to see if a picture had an alt text or not.So some users created this Twitter bot, which would troll through the picture.And if it had an alt text, it would just post it.If it didn't have an alt text, it would post, say, "Look, there's no alt text here." And it was kind of like a nudge for people."Hey, there's no alt text here, can you add the alt text please?We can't read this." Yeah, I thought it was pretty neat, anyway.
• linkBen Ainslie - That’s really cool.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah, depending on what your client is, you might see the alt text button, or you just might not at all.
• linkPharaohKatt - Yeah.But I think the alt text button is also a relatively new one.So, it didn't always exist even on the Twitter website, or the Twitter official app.So, that's pretty new as well.There's less use for the bot now than there used to be.But some users have said they're still finding it quite helpful, especially as, like, a prod to get people to add an Alt text when there isn't one.
• linkBen Ainslie - Yeah, I like that sort of…I can't help but feel like— and I'm not at all trying to denigrate the people who made this bot because I think they did a really cool thing —but it almost feels like pester power in marketing.Like when ads would target kids, and then basically be like, "Pester your parents until they buy this thing for you!" It feels like that it's just like, "Hey, hey, hey, hey, just do it, do it."
• linkDaniel Midgley - "Do the thing."
• linkBen Ainslie - LAUGHSI like it.It's effective.
• linkDaniel Midgley - This is from an article.The article that PharaohKatt is talking about is by Mia Sato in The Verge.And it's got another little tool that got invented, it's the Alt Text Reminder.What it does is, if you sign up for it, like I just did, it sends a private message to you if you post an image without posting alt text.Now, the funny thing about this article is that the two tools that have been mentioned are now both obsolete because Twitter now does this itself to I think everyone.If you post a message, it'll nag you about alt text, just like the alt text reminder bot will.I just looked through the Alt Text Reminders feed and there was a message from Alt Text Reader, the other one saying, "Hey, welcome to the list of obsolete Twitter bots having to do with accessibility." But even though the features have been incorporated in Twitter itself, I'm still using them both just as a little reminder, just as a little nag to help me remember that accessibility matters.
• linkBen Ainslie - I like it.
• linkDaniel Midgley - There's also people volunteering to do alt text and they find images, and then they do alt text.But there's a lot of churn there because people burn out.It's a nice thing to do.
• linkBen Ainslie - There's a lot of pictures on the internet.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh, my goodness.
• linkBen Ainslie - CHUCKLESThat is a thing.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I still would love to have some kind of feature that would find, like, if you post an image, and that image has been posted somewhere else with alt text, it will carry over your alt text.
• linkBen Ainslie - Oh, like a bit of a TinEye Reverse Image Search type thing.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah, that kind of thing.Reverse alt text search.Mmm
• linkBen Ainslie - I like that.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah.
• linkBen Ainslie - Get on that.Get your progeny who do the coding to make that.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Come on, science.And did anybody have any other comments, or PharaohKatt, on that one?
• linkDaniel Midgley - BEN (NOT THE HOST ONE):Does anyone run across the feature, I think it's in PowerPoint that uses ML?When you add an image into a PowerPoint these days, it automatically gives it an alt text, and sometimes it works and sometimes it's, as you might expect.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I have not heard of that one.
• linkBen Ainslie - I have not.Yeah, that's really interesting.I imagine as well— here's where my brain goes on these things because I'm such a fucking cynic —that much like YouTube's autogenerated captions, what Microsoft potentially is doing deep learning, tutorialising of their AI.So, when they put in a generated alt text, and the user is like, "Oh, fuck, no, this is terrible.This is what it's supposed to be," they're slowly teaching the machine, "Aha, this is how you do this a little bit better.
• linkARIAFLAME - Either that or they're teaching the user to do the alt text properly in the first place.
• linkLAUGHTER
• linkBen Ainslie - You know what?Why not both?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Why not both?
• linkARIAFLAME - Yeah, I was recently adding a lot of alt texts because I was updating some lectures.So, I was going through and finding all these images that did not have alt text on them and adding the alt text.Yeah, it's a job.But yes, I did notice some of the autogenerated ones and they were generally minimal and not that helpful.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay, this will improve.This will improve over time.
• linkBen Ainslie - We'll get the Star Trek computer eventually, guys.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Let's move on to our next one from seejanecricket.seejanecricket, are you here at the moment?Yay, awesome
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - Yeah, I am.Good morning, everyone.Well, it's morning for me.Apologies.
• linkBen Ainslie - Hi, multi time zone every person!
• linkDaniel Midgley - Sorry, everybody for the timing.Yikes.
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - So, this is a story in the category of the Cheer Cheese renaming theme.
• linkBen Ainslie - Oh, yep.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Love those.
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - Apologies.I did end up going down a bit of a rabbit hole, so there's a few slight divisions.I'm coming to you today from Naarm, also known as Melbourne, I live on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung land and pay my respects to elders' past, present and future.And just want to say upfront, I'm not indigenous and have no special knowledge in this area.But I was reading about that, and I think it's a really important part of our connection and reconciliation processes.One of the things I love about this particular renaming is it seems to have come from a proactive approach.The council local government area that will also be known as shires and counties and other countries to the north of me — pointing in a podcast, very helpful!
• linkCHUCKLES
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - It was previously known as Moreland and it is now being renamed Merri-bek, which in the Wurrung language means Rocky Country.One of my diversions is that I was really excited to discover or rediscover because it's possible I knew this and just forgot it that Wurrung is one of the languages where woi means no, so it's named after how to say no.
• linkBen Ainslie - Oh, it's ano-having language, yeah, yeah.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I noticed that.We talked about the no languages in an episode of Talk the Talk quite a while ago.
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - Yeah, so Boon Wurrung is another one of those in the same region.The reason it's been renamed is that Moreland was originally named that in 1839 after someone basically came and took the land and named it after a slave plantation in Jamaica that his ancestors had owned.
• linkBen Ainslie - Ugh.It's like a double nested awfulness.
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - Yeah, it wasn’t…
• linkDaniel Midgley - Carried over.
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - It wasn't officially named that until 1994 when the state government under, guess who, Jeff Kennett merged a whole bunch of councils to form the new city of Moreland, a throwback to the colonial name for the land.
• linkBen Ainslie - Right.
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - I was trying to find where the renaming impetus came from.And I don't really have a source for this, but the then Moreland council were in a process of reconciliation with the local Indigenous people.And it seems to come out of those conversations, which I really like.So, it doesn't come from outrage or a social media campaign or anything.It's actually been brought to them by the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung elders, who gave the council three options for a new name.Wa-dam-buk, meaning "renew";Merri-bek, meaning "rocky country";and Jerrang, meaning "leaf of tree".So, Merri-bek, they did various consultations and a vote, which they seem to have managed fairly well, because I didn't get any nonsense options.Meaning…so "rocky country" came, or Merribek came in at 59%.Only 6% of people voted for no change at all.
• linkBen Ainslie - Wow.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Nice.Wow.
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - It's actually a great story.94% of the people in the area wanted to change the name, and it's come from a proactive position of reconciliation, rather than a sort of outrage.Acknowledging that sometimes outrage and attention is how you get things changed.And I just wanted to finish with a quote from the mayor."The name of the city is of fairly important significance and symbolism to the city.And if it's excluding somebody, why would you want to keep it?" Which is also just such a great common-sense approach.So, there you go.The area to the north remains now Merribek.
• linkBen Ainslie - I really agree with you the idea that we're starting to see systems begin to change.Look, and I don't want to overblow it.The worst thing— not the worst thing —but a not great thing to do is to go, "Oh, look, they've changed this name.Let's dust our hands off, all good."
• linkDaniel Midgley - We're done!
• linkBen Ainslie - But I completely agree with you the idea that there is some level of systemic and iconographic change that's taking place without people having to, like, piss and moan for years and years and years, and just burn themselves out saying the same thing over and over and over again, until finally someone goes:"~Oh, maybe we could change the name.~" And then all of a sudden, it's like, "Oh, yay, they changed the name." Meanwhile, the people who did all the work are sitting there being like, "Yeah, overnight success, no worries." If you sort of read between the lines of what you were just saying, it sounds like it probably just came to light in the procedure of a reconciliation process, right?Like, the council went.We are going to engage in a reconciliation process, and in that process, the traditional owners went, "Well, I mean, you can change the name to one of these few things," and the council were like, "Bloody great idea.Okay, let's do it." That's awesome.That's exactly how a good reconciliation process ought to work, I imagine.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Does anyone get the impression that maybe Merribek was the winning option, possibly because it also started with M?I looked at the three options, and I thought, "Which one of these could I remember?" And I found that if I was going from Moreland to Merribek, that's less of a jarring sort of switch.I just wonder if the first letter had any salience there.That's just a guess.
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - I did wonder about that.And actually, I was out with a friend recently in that region.And she went to say the name, and she said, "Merribek, is that right?That sounds like the right one?" I was like, "Yeah, because it's got the same…" I couldn't remember the specific word, but I could remember that had the same sounds in it.So, yeah.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Just enough to start you off.
• linkO TIM - Do you mind…?What were the three choices again?I'm hearing Merri-beth, and I know it's not that and I'm just wondering if that was part of the…why it's more familiar to us already, because it sounds like a name we already recognize.
• linkBen Ainslie - Yeah, I was thinking about the same thing because it's got Merri in it, for sure.
• linkO TIM - What were the other two?
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - The other two were Wa-dam-buk and Jerrang.I'll put them in the chat.I've got the spellings, and they very helpfully came with pronunciations as well.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh, nice.Yeah, the more familiar, the more similar sound.I mean, it's kind of the way we're wired, I should be able to remember somebody's name, if it sounds super different from the ones I'm used to, but it's hard.Sometimes with Merribek, you know, it's got the Merri in it, which you could reanalyse incorrectly as being English.
• linkBen Ainslie - I reckon Jerrang would have been able to fly pretty easily as well, simply because it's familiar in a different way, because we've got so many places that still do have Indigenous names…
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah.
• linkBen Ainslie - …sort of all across, especially rural Australia.I think Jerrang, it certainly sounds quite familiar to me.Like, I feel maybe there's already a place called Jerrang possibly.
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - Just another piece of context, apologies, but the Merri Creek so I'm trying…it's got that Australian schwa in it, but it's M-E-R-R-I.I am pointing again because it's just over there, a couple of blocks , but…flows through this whole region of Melbourne and down into the Yarra.So, the Merri in Merri-bek is the same word.And for a lot of people, it's also associated with the region.So that's another association that came.
• linkDaniel Midgley - That'll do it.
• linkBen Ainslie - There we go, yeah, that'll definitely do it.
• linkDaniel Midgley - CHUCKLESDefinitely.
• linkBen Ainslie - ~That'll get 'er done.~
• linkDaniel Midgley - Well, that's great.I'm really pleased to hear that that's happening.And without a lot of people being weird about it, so that's awesome.Thank you, seejanecricket, I really appreciate that.Okay, now we are going to hear one from Lena who isn't in the chat right now.But she did send us a recording via SpeakPipe.So, I am going to share a thing.
• linkBen Ainslie - Do it.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Here I go.Okay.This is about name change as well, in the wonderful world of cookery.
• linkLENA - Hey, peeps, it's Lena from the Discord.So I just wanted to talk about renaming of some cookies in the Netherlands.I'm not Dutch myself, but I've lived here for almost a decade now.So, the other day, I went to the grocery store and got myself some cookies, as you do.And I saw some cookies on the shelf, and they were called jodekoeken, which means Jew cookies.It doesn't even mean Jewish cookies, because that would be "joodse koekjes." I was kinda confused, and I had been listening to a bunch of the early episodes with the renaming stuff, so I decided to look them up a bit more online.
• linkLENA - Apparently, those kinds of cookies have been around for a long time, like at least since the 1880s.Some other sources say, like, 1740.But apparently, they became Jewish cookies when this Jewish baker made them first in a specific way, and he sold the recipe to some cookie company.And they're like flat round cookies, mostly flour, butter, sugar, like really simple cookies.So, other people also think they might be called Jewish cookies because bad quality or cheap things were often called like, Jewish whatevers.So, that's something to also keep in mind maybe.
• linkLENA - So in 2021, one of the biggest makers of this type of cookie, like really traditional big brand name, decided to rename them and call them odekoeken, instead of jodekoeken.So basically, it just dropped the J at the beginning.And ODE in this case means the same as the English ODE, like a tribute or a celebration.And they chose the name because it sounded similar to the original.
• linkLENA - And they say they didn't actually renamed the cookies because they got any backlash, but because they themselves felt like it didn't represent their values of diversity and inclusivity.And stuff like that, and it wasn't of the times anymore.So, when they were thinking about renaming them, they actually did a survey.And apparently, mostly younger people agreed that the name should be changed.And they informed the head of the Jewish Council in the Netherlands, and that person said that they never took any offense to the name and that this renaming might be a little too cautious.But they did really appreciate it nonetheless.
• linkLENA - And they did also say that, like, jodekoeke one isn't actually that Jewish because it's not kosher, apparently.But what I said earlier, it's not actually a Jewish cookie, because that will be "joodse koekjes." It's just Jew cookie.So, it wouldn't even be grammatically correct.And apparently, there's another company who's been thinking about renaming those cookies as well.And they're still in the process of doing it, but they say they have only had, like, one question about the name in the last two and a half years or, so who knows?
• linkLENA - I did see that there was a bit of backlash on Twitter about…do woke PC culture gone too far that even the cookies need to be renamed?The original name is still out there a lot, like, all of the generic brand supermarket version still have the same old jodekoeken name.And I don't feel there's enough cultural animo to change any of that.It doesn't seem like people are getting offended about it.And if even the head of the Jewish Council says like:"Ah, you know, it's nice that they want to be inclusive, but this name hasn't bothered us." I don't know if it will actually change, but I can't wait to hear what you all think about that and the whole renaming process.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay, so that was from Lena.I am sensing a theme here that some of these things are coming about, not because of external pressure, but just naturally.As more and more things change, maybe it's gaining momentum.
• linkBen Ainslie - I want to ask if anyone in our Discord is, like, fluent in Dutch, because I have a question about Dutch and the usage of the Dutch language.Do we have any Dutch speakers like, fairly nuanced understanding Dutch speakers?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Nope.
• linkBen Ainslie - Can you give it a second?I'm going to give it a second.
• linkDaniel Midgley - CHUCKLES
• linkBen Ainslie - 'Cause whenever a question like this happens in a communal setting like this, someone's always like, "Oh, wait, fuck, how do I unmute?" But no, I'm guessing by now that the answer is no.Because what I wanted to know— and I'd like to open this up to everyone —is it…I can't be alone in sensing how the word JEW is becoming more and more sort of charged in English.Right?In the sense that, depending on tone, inflection, and context, JEW can absolutely be used as a word in a pretty harsh and disrespectful way.
• linkBen Ainslie - And it can also be used in a completely sort of neutral, "This is the noun that describes a person who belongs in this category." And I'm just wondering if the same thing is true in Dutch because Jew cookie in English, I don't know about anyone else but I get like a little bit of likeSHUDDERthat’s a little bit…that's intense!There's a little part of me that goes:"Is that how we should be?Should we…should we?I don't know, that doesn't seem right!"
• linkBen Ainslie - CHUCKLES
• linkDaniel Midgley - No.
• linkBen Ainslie - So, that's my question, is:in Dutch, is JEW occupying the same sort of semantic space, essentially, where the word JEW can actually really rub in an aggressive way, depending on how it's used.PAUSEBut no one can answer that question, so I've just been talking to myself for like three minutes.
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - If I can comment, I think, Ben— not to do a live fact check because again, I'm not a historian or anything —but I think actually, we've been lucky enough to live in a brief period of history with Jew hasn't always had a negative connotation…
• linkBen Ainslie - Yeah, fair enough.
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - …in our life experience.Based on what I have read, mainly fiction, for a long time, think of Merchant of Venice in Shakespeare's time, for example, it has had that connotation.Even I could hear the allusion— in English anyway —and I don't know enough about Dutch to know.But antisemitism is international.
• linkBen Ainslie - Yeah.
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - I imagine it's the same.I've been trying to think of, if there's another analogy, because there are some people and cultures you associate with being stingy or cheap.So Scots, for instance can have a reputation of being stingy.But it doesn't have nearly the same level of negativity and bias and weight of history, I suppose behind, from my own perspective.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Ariaflame?Let me get you to…
• linkARIAFLAME - Yeah, yes, sorry.Yes, I'm originally from Scotland, so, you cannot tell that from my accent, I am fully aware of thisCHUCKLESThis is what happens when you grew up in a navy town, you get a very neutral BBC British accent.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay, so let's see.The other thing that I noticed about this was that having a name that's kind of similar to the one that you just had, like, Cheer Cheese, for example, that helps people to cling on to the new name and can facilitate.So maybe that's something for renamers to think about.If you can find something that's kind of similar, kind of analogous, it helps.
• linkBen Ainslie - And another thing to, I think, probably acknowledge— and I'm sure many of our patrons who are here with us today, and many of our listeners are aware of this —but some people might not be, is that, like many countries around the world, the Netherlands is going through a period of inward reflection and analysis of some of their cultural practices, which are pretty fucking problematic to do with Christmas and blackface and a bunch of other things.I'm not trying to rule one way or another, but just provide the context that in the Netherlands, there is a conversation that's been happening about how you refer to other cultures in a way that is respectful and not harmful.And a lot of Dutch people— like, I don't want to paint the picture that all Dutch people are: ~guhhh, it's fucking PC madness gone wrong~ — There's a lot of Dutch people who are really on board with the idea that like, "Hey, maybe we shouldn't do things that are just overtly disrespectful to other people, even if it's something that we've done for a long time." So that context probably matters.
• linkBen Ainslie - When we look at this idea of a company, maybe really jumping forward and trying to be quite proactive about this thing, almost to the point where people from that community are like, "Um, it wasn't a problem, but, okay, cool, no worries!" There is a larger context around that in the Netherlands, which is why some of that stuff might be happening there specifically.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Thanks to Lena for that.And I suppose I should say what I always say when it comes to renaming things:we can't just rename things and call it done.We need to be aware that there's only so much you can do with language as far as racism and sexism in a profoundly racist and sexist culture.Just changing the words for things won't necessarily get you all the way there.But I think we're in the middle of an exciting period of change, where people are really looking at the way we use language, hey, that's what we do to look at how we refer to people, the exonyms and endonyms, product names, team names.How are we portraying other people?It's a tale as old as time it's been with us since Beauty and the Beast.How do we refer to people, how do we relate to people who are different from ourselves?SINGSWe don't like what we don't understand, in fact it that scares us.SPEAKINGSo, the fact that we're in this moment where we…
• linkBen Ainslie - Only fucking youLAUGHTERwould figure out how to bring musical theater into this fucking shit.Oh, my god.
• linkDaniel Midgley - SINGSAnd this monster is mysterious at least.SPEAKINGIt's not even in my range, Gaston is very…anyway.So, I'm glad that we're in this moment where we can push this along and maybe do some good.So, thanks, Lena.All right.Now, we're over to Ditte talking about language, neuropsychology, and cognition.Ditte, you're a neuropsychologist.Could you tell us about what you do?
• linkDITTE - I've been thinking about something since I've been listening to this podcast.I've been hearing a lot about all this debate about Chomsky in this language, universal grammar thing.Or, is it something more to do with general cognition, and the thing where Chomsky thinks that language maybe has more to do with structuring internal thoughts than with communication.And I'm working as a neuropsychologist and do cognitive evaluations when people have had some brain damage or if they think they might have dementia, and they need a cognitive assessment.And when I've been doing my work, I've been thinking a lot about how personally, I view language as something that is built on more general cognition things, and I think language is primarily for communication and not for structuring thought.But even so, in my work, I see a lot about how both cognition affects language, but also how language affects cognition, both of them really.I can give you an example.
• linkDITTE - I was doing this evaluation of a woman who was suspected of having dementia.And one of her major symptoms was language-related.She had trouble finding words— mainly nouns, also some others —so she would have to…like she'll forget the word, maybe she would forget the word TABLE and then she had to explain it in other ways.That was one of the major symptoms, but also a bit of other things.She had been to the doctors at the hospital where I work, who do this cognitive screening with a tool called the MMSE, just short cognitive screening.And they were rather puzzled because both this woman and her daughter said that in her everyday life she was actually doing quite well.She was managing to do everyday stuff and communicate with her family reasonably well and remember things she had to do.But when they did this short cognitive screening she performed really, really badly, not only on the things that weren't directly about language, but also on some of the memory tasks.And there were some sort of puzzle because how can that be?Both can't be true.So, she went for further evaluation with me, more in-depth cognitive evaluation.And what I found was that she could remember things well, but it was really, really blocking things for her when she couldn't put it into words.When she had just some random list of words, something that didn't mean anything to her, that didn't have a context for her, then she couldn't think of other words to describe them;she couldn't find the words.
• linkDITTE - Whereas in everyday life, if there was something she wanted to say, then she had the whole context of what that was about and thus, she had a way to find other words.And I did, among other things, a little task that's meant to make things more like everyday, where you ask the person to remember something, something but you're telling them, they have to pretend that we're going to the supermarket together and these are the things that we want to buy.And we had a little chat about that, and she performed perfectly well there.She could remember that because we had this little talk, that meant she had said stuff like, "Oh, oh, oh, cooking oil, I never buy that." That meant she had some context.She could use to say, "Oh, I can't remember the word, but that thing I never buy," or stuff like that.
• linkDITTE - So it was really hard for her to do some cognitive tasks and I think that this has to do with the way our cognition is generally often geared towards communicating stuff to others, because that's really important to us.And that means that if we do things like memorising random lists of words and such, we don't do that to use that internal thought.We do that with the intent of later communicating it to someone else.
• linkDITTE - So, even though the language is meant for communication, it still really affects cognition, because the cognition was meant in order to facilitate this communication and when the language doesn't work the same way, then it's really hard.
• linkDaniel Midgley - This is one of the areas that I find really fascinating, language and the brain.The brain is an extremely complex place.If it were simple enough for us to understand, then we wouldn't be able to use our simple brains to understand it.
• linkBen Ainslie - Ditte, can I ask you:in your role as a person who working with this cognitive evaluation and analysis of, say, this individual and other individuals, intuitively, when you're telling this story about a sort of…and I'm just going to recap it really briefly, just to make sure I've got it right.A elderly woman who is suffering from dementia or Alzheimer's, who can function very, very sort of capably in her everyday life, communicate with her family and her close network, and get by without basically any real problems, but when assessed on this very specific analysis tool, performs very, very poorly.Intuitively, my brain kind of goes, is this just evidence of the really significant adaptability and plasticity of everyone's brain?
• linkBen Ainslie - So, she is suffering from this inability to recall very specifically a large group of nouns and some other words, but when given the opportunity to kind of stretch her cognitive legs, for a terribleLAUGHSmetaphor, she actually has a lot of really helpful and capable workarounds that allow her to navigate around these voids in her memory.Is that kind of what you are seeing happening?Or is there something else at work?
• linkDITTE - Yeah.Partly that but also, I think it shows something about the limitation of the tools we use.The same tools that would be problematic in such a case are also sometimes problematic when you're testing people who come from different cultures, especially if in those cultures, it's common not to have a lot of education, maybe not to go to school at all or only a little bit, because doing some formal education really shapes our cognition and it shapes how we use language to do more academic stuff, like remembering long lists of things or remembering your timetables, something like that.
• linkDaniel Midgley - CHUCKLESCase in point.
• linkDITTE - That's something you need to go through as a child to help you in order for your cognition to be shaped into doing that, because you learn to do the things that are important to you in life.But if people don't do education, then they do things…they learn to think in ways that they need in their everyday life.That's actually an example that was made quite a long time ago by one of the pioneers within neuroscience, really a Russian guy named Alexander Luria.He did some research where he was studying categorisation, like odd one out test, which ones go together, and which one's the odd one out.For most people he studied and who had some education or at least just regular primary school but had schooling, they would group together things that were alike, like group all the animals together or the tools together and that way, that probably comes natural to most of us too.But when he went out to these really rural areas where people didn't really…hadn't gotten to come to school much, then people would group things together by what was used together.So, the cow would go together with the stool to sit on when you milked it and the bucket to get the milk in, instead of going with the other animals.
• linkDITTE - The point is that this wasn't wrong.This was the way to categorise things that made sense in their everyday lives, and they had never been in a setting where the other way made sense.This means we really need to be careful what we think of as normal, and what kind of tools we use.
• linkBen Ainslie - It sounds like what we're sort of now approaching— or not even approaching, what we're squarely in —is this idea of accessibility within research, because I imagine it has to be a very complex question to answer.Right?The scientific method is a fairly exacting thing, but at the same time, as you've just really articulately described, we are an incredibly fallible culture, certainly in the West, in terms of the acknowledgement and celebration of, and even just understanding of the different levels of, as you've said, education.But also many other things:neurodivergence, sort of physical "ability", we still come from a very archaic understanding of the human condition, and that archaic-ness— great language, Ben, keep going —is sort of infiltrated into every level of what we undertake, even supposedly very highly educated fields of study.I think it's a really interesting idea of how we dismantle and understand better exactly what you've described.Right?So, a person from a rural background who was categorising different from us doesn't lack the ability to categorise, they do it differently and we need to understand that if we are to assess those people.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yep.
• linkDITTE - Within neuropsychology, there's actually some work being done in order to develop more cross-cultural tests, tests that work across cultures or at least only have a small bit of cultural bias and that's great for neuropsychology, for those evaluations.And even though we still need more of those, but as long as you're studying people in some way, you need to take these things into account and the tools you use.I think that's really important.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay, thank you for bringing that issue to us and thanks to everyone who has brought things so far.Now, it's time for a new segment that we're going to have ongoingly, courtesy of a brand-new sponsor for the show.I teased on Discord that we have a new sponsor, so it's time to reveal who it is.Folks…
• linkBen Ainslie - I thought you're about to…I saw you press something, and I was like, "Is he queuing an actual drumroll?Is that what's about to happen?"
• linkDaniel Midgley - Burrr.
• linkBen Ainslie - I'm so glad you didn't.Thank you.
• linkDaniel Midgley - No, I would just stick a drum emoji in chat.
• linkBen Ainslie - Yeah.LAUGHS
• linkDaniel Midgley - Folks, it's the Oxford English Dictionary.
• linkBen Ainslie - What-what?
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHSThe definitive record of the English language.They got in touch, we worked it out, and it's a real honour to have them roll with us.So, instead of this segment being an ad that we read, which would be really boring…
• linkBen Ainslie - Super boring.
• linkDaniel Midgley - …this is going to take the form of a game and we want you to play along.
• linkBen Ainslie - Yes.Hedvig is not here for me to destroy.So obviously, this game is suboptimal, but I will enjoy it, nonetheless.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah, but nonetheless, we want everybody to participate as well in the form of a poll.I've got a poll all queued up and ready to go.What's going to happen is the game is Related or Not.I'm going to give you two English words and you have to tell me if they are related or if the similarity between them is merely coincidental.
• linkBen Ainslie - One of our Discord Patrons, when I floated the idea of this game being called Yea or Nah, very, very appropriately checked me and said, "Now, if we were going to use it in Australian English, it would be 'Yeah Nah or Nah Yeah.'"
• linkDaniel Midgley - I'm confused now.
• linkBen Ainslie - Oh, it’s the other Ben!It's the not-host Ben.Sorry.Thank you, Ben.LAUGHTERBen, very properly was like, "Oh, bro, your lack of Australianness is showing."LAUGHS
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay.To find out whether these words are related or not, we're going to be using information from the Oxford English Dictionary, the definitive record of the English language.As you know, Ben, the etymological information in the OED is second to none.So, here we go.The words are the word UTTER and the word UTTER, as in, "Ben called me an utter cockwomble and I was too surprised to utter a word." Do they come from the same place, or is the similarity between them coincidental?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Now, first of all, this is the part where we kick it around, nobody look up anything.Don't use it yet.If you do look it up, don't comment but this is the part where we can say "Uh, maybe" or "Uh, maybe not." Ben, initial impressions?
• linkBen Ainslie - My gut, my stomach, which of course is the seat of all language knowledge immediately went, "Yeah, nah," which for our non-Australian listeners is a no.Yeah, I feel just intuitively no, because English has pilfered so much from so many places, I reckon this is an example of one thing being, I'm going to say Scandi.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay.
• linkBen Ainslie - Right?So, like a Viking kind of loan word type situation, and then something from a completely different sort of linguistic tree.I reckon there's two families that have ended up being similar.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay.That's Ben's…is that your guess?Let's listen to what anybody else has.
• linkBen Ainslie - That's my guess.That's my tum-tum.That's what my tum-tum says.
• linkDaniel Midgley - It's okay to change that, anybody got any input?What do you reckon?Unless you've looked it up.
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - I haven't looked it up.The chat told me to put my dictionary back on the shelf.So, I've done that.
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - LAUGHTER
• linkBen Ainslie - Yeah.Put it away.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Put that thing away!
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - I'm going to say no because I'm thinking about domains of meanings.One is the UTTER, the extreme, the outermost realms, and the other one is an utterance of sound, something that comes out.So, I'm coming at it from that angle.
• linkBen Ainslie - Semantically.They're semantically fairly distant.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay.Anybody else?
• linkBen Ainslie - Do we have any yeses?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah, anybody who thinks:"Yeah, I think they might be related because they share something."
• linkDaniel Midgley - BEN NOT THE HOST:I can see how they might be related in that one is to give out an utterance and the other might be the outermost, if they changed the pronunciation over time, they could both be related to OUT.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay.
• linkBen Ainslie - I like that.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Interesting.Yeah.Ben, are you being swayed by Ben?
• linkBen Ainslie - Umm.Not yet, but what other-Ben has alluded to is a thing that I didn't really account for, which is the idea that there's a linkage that could be kind of lost to time.Right?Like, the idea that your name is related to midgies.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yes.
• linkBen Ainslie - Right?Like biting gnat insects.The idea that linkage exists is just super…I would never have guessed that.So, I'm allowing for the fact that I am stupid and not very knowledgeable about history.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Let's put up the poll and everybody except Ben, feel free to vote.There we go.
• linkBen Ainslie - Doo, doo, doo, dooby-doo.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Votes are rolling in.
• linkBen Ainslie - It's neck and neck.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Ah, look at this!
• linkBen Ainslie - Oh, "No" is winning.
• linkDaniel Midgley - But only by a hair.
• linkBen Ainslie - Yep.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay, 12 people out of 13 of us, have voted…Who's…Oh, it's me.Okay.
• linkBen Ainslie - It's probably me as well.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay.I'm going to end the poll.As you can see:42% Yes, 58% No.Now, it's time for the answer.The answer is:related!LAUGHS
• linkBen Ainslie - Oh, Ben Not The Host ONE should probably become the host one.
• linkDaniel Midgley - According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the words have bounced around a little bit and they've been influenced by other words, but they do share the same origin and it relates to the word OUT or ÚT, UTER…
• linkBen Ainslie - GASPSBen's got it!
• linkDaniel Midgley - Ben's got it.Right the way along.
• linkBen Ainslie - He was right on the fucking money!Wow, good job.
• linkDaniel Midgley - So, the UTTER is the outer or even the utmost.So, when someone is an 'UTTER biscuit', they are the most out their form of biscuitry there is.And when we UTTER an utterance, we speak it out.We put it out there.Like I say, other words have contributed to both of these, but they both share OUT as an etymon.There you go!
• linkBen Ainslie - I'm not gonna do it but I'm miming a slow clap.That was really impressive.
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHSOther Ben, Not The Host wins this episode of…
• linkBen Ainslie - Brava.Brava!
• linkDaniel Midgley - …Yeah Nah or Nah Yea.In chat, I am noticing that there's a lot of UDDER related…Oh, what the hell, let's just figure out whether udders on a cow…I think not, that's going to be some…
• linkBen Ainslie - I don’t know, milk comes OUT of them.
• linkBen Ainslie - LAUGHTER
• linkDaniel Midgley - No!According to Oxford, the pendulous baggy organ provided with two or more teats or nipples by which the milk is secreted in certain female animals.Doesn't seem to have OUT as one of those things.It just seems to be one of those:that's the word for that thing.That's what we call that thing.
• linkBen Ainslie - Maybe related to the word UNDER?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Nope, not showing up.Just there was an UTHER or UBER.Oh, wait a minute.Hang on.
• linkBen Ainslie - LAUGHSHang on, what's this?Enhance, enhance.
• linkDaniel Midgley - This is getting weird.So, I'm going to stop reading that entry.
• linkBen Ainslie - Okay.LAUGHS
• linkDaniel Midgley - But we'll play another round of this next time.Remember, for all your word-related info, that's the Oxford English Dictionary, the definitive record of the English language.
• linkBen Ainslie - Hey, thanks so much for sponsoring us, OED.And Daniel, when you got all out of sorts about me threatening to stab a bunch of people for the OED, all I can say is:proof's in the pudding, my friend.I offered my services, and they want me to stab people.So, OED, you just let me know, you just let me know who's the target…
• linkDaniel Midgley - They loved it.They thought that stuff was great.
• linkBen Ainslie - I'll get stabbing.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay, now it's time for our Words of the Week, and we are starting with one from PharaohKatt.Whatcha got?
• linkPharaohKatt - Okay, so my word this week is PRECARIAT.
• linkBen Ainslie - Precariat?
• linkPharaohKatt - Precariat.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh, surely, Ben.No?Okay, go on.
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHTER
• linkPharaohKatt - Okay.I found it via Twitter via one of the speechies that I follow.Apparently, it's been used previously, but I'd never heard it.This was based on a Conversation article about New Zealand.The article is "For many New Zealand scholars, the old career paths are broken, our survey shows the reality for this new academic precariat."
• linkBen Ainslie - Wow.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Mhm.
• linkBen Ainslie - So, it means a kind of an environment or a system that is endemically precarious?
• linkPharaohKatt - Yeah.That's kind of it.It's like a combined combination of, like, PROLETARIAT and PRECARIOUS.It's people who are maybe living paycheck to paycheck, they're living precariously.So, it's like the class of people is the precariat.So yeah, it's people who are working, like, gig economy, or who don't have a lot of job security.Like academics right now, especially in Australia where the funding to universities is just down.Yeah, so:PRECARIAT that's my Word of the Week.
• linkBen Ainslie - That's a good one and it's a really appropriate…A really appropriate word for…I'm seeing it a lot in America possibly because so much of our media comes from there, but just the idea of the hustle.So many people now have to engage in so many different, quite stressful realities to just get life done.The security of a paycheck that you can just rely on being there for a lot of people is just a rarer and rarer thing.And so, there being a word to describe this entire sort of end-stage capitalism dysfunction is good and really sad.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I took a look at other words ending in -AT…or actually -ERIAT because there's a search engine called Lots of Words, that allows you to look at words by the way they begin, or they end.It's really good, we'll drop a link on becauselanguage.com for this show page.Other words ending in -AT are things like (of course) PROLETARIAT, PUNDITARIAT, COMMENTARIAT— which is cute, because it's got commentary in it —the MILITARIAT, and then the SALARIAT and the WELFARIAT.As well as the PRECARIAT.
• linkBen Ainslie - Is TRIUMVIRATE in there?Not really, is it?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Not really, because it's got an -E ending.The interesting thing about that is according to the OED, in old French…Latin had words that ended in -ATUS and -ATUM, like the SENATUS and AVOCATUS, which means the lawyers.In Old French, they ended up as -AT— A-T —but in English, we usually gave them -ATE like SENATE and ADVOCATE.But some words kept the -AT ending from French, like PROLETARIAT.So, I think what this word is doing, PRECARIAT, is borrowing from that sense of a unified group of people who belong to a social class and the inescapability, the social immobility of getting out of that class.I think PRECARIAT shares in that sense, and that's why this is a good way of ending that word.
• linkBen Ainslie - Very good word.I like it.
• linkDaniel Midgley - It appears to have come…first instance in the OED is 1989.
• linkBen Ainslie - Wow.
• linkDaniel Midgley - From M.Harrington in a book called Socialism, a tract called Socialism.Here's the money quote, "A precariat of casual workers, participants in the underground economy." Wow.
• linkBen Ainslie - Lot older.Lot older.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah.1989 that was published.So, that's a good one.Okay, thank you!Let's go to the next one from Aristemo.You've got one for us.
• linkAristemo - And so I do.Can you hear me?
• linkBen Ainslie - Yep, we can.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Sound good.
• linkAristemo - Okay, cool.Yeah, I came across this one pretty recently, something uplifting for a nice change.News, this one is CLIMATE OPTIMISM.It seems to be trending a fair amount on TikTok.I kind of see it as a rejection or even kind of post-despair of how maybe millennials and other generations are experiencing or considering climate change.Instead of this idea of getting stuck in or trapped in the "Damn, we're all doomed, climate is going to shit," and all of that, it's the positive idea that, "Actually, we can do something about this.Let's get out there and do it.Let's focus on the good news.Let's spread that." It's not a denial of the bad things out there, but it's just the, "Let's change this, we can fix this.We're not all doomed." CLIMATE OPTIMISM.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I am myself a climate optimist.I think that there are a lot of indicators that are at last pointing the right way, as far as renewable energy and as far as— depending on the country you live —the political voting patterns that are happening.I'm encouraged by at least Australia.And also, I think climate doomerism is not very helpful.So a video that says this really well is a new one by Kurzgesagt.
• linkBen Ainslie - The best videos and the most annoying name!
• linkDaniel Midgley - I'm having a hard time.I didn't even bother looking at what it means because I just like it.But they have a video, "We can solve climate change," in which they point to…there's no time for complacency.We've got to buy, invest, and vote appropriately, but a lot of indicators are turning around, and that's a good thing.
• linkBen Ainslie - I want to be a climate optimist.I really do.I really, really do.And then, I find it really hard because in my bones and my shard of obsidian that I have in place of a heart,LAUGHSI just really struggle so much because I just see so many people in power doing so many fucking stupid things and just being, like:"Oh, well, the political…" There's just not…Argh, there's not enough bravery in leadership.I just want a Paul Keating to come along and just be a bit of a dad…or a woman being a mum or something like that where they just go, "Right!That's it!You've fucked around for long enough!We're fixing this problem!And it's going to suck and it's going to not be very fun for a while.But this is the…you fucking…we all got ourselves here and now we have to pay the price and that's just how it goes." I just want someone to do that and to say that.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah.
• linkBen Ainslie - I feel like there needs to be…to balance the optimism is just like a stern schoolmarm, who's going to come in and just be like:"This is what's happening!"
• linkDaniel Midgley - Well.I think so too, but of course, schoolmarms and schoolmasters are not popular.What I'm seeing is that while…I'm a progressive, I really do believe that governments can make positive changes, but governments right now are mired in squabbling and bad actors like Joe Manchin in the USA.And you know what I see?I don't want to be this free marketeer libertarian weirdo.I see the free market just doing it.Like, we're seeing solar, we're seeing batteries, we're seeing electric vehicles.There are challenges, but these things are pulling in line and they're going in the right direction.And I think if this happens, it's going to show how useless government can be, and how good people making economic decisions can be.
• linkBen Ainslie - Bring on democratic lotteries, I say.
• linkAristemo - Yeah.I think a lot of industries are also just realising that it's more cost effective to switch to renewables in a lot of ways, especially in the long term, and when you consider logistics, going electric makes a hell of a lot more sense.If you think about the returns you get on coal in terms of energy and production, things aren't necessarily going green because they have the best values in mind!I think a lot of it is just the cost benefit for them, but fuck it.I'll take it.
• linkBen Ainslie - Yeah.Like, if the man I hate is doing a thing I don't hate…okay.
• linkBen Ainslie - LAUGHTER
• linkDaniel Midgley - Full disclosure.I have a significant stake in Tesla.So I just want to put that out there.Seejanecricket, can I read your comment in chat?"Doomerism is also used by interested parties to actively prevent change.~Yes, climate change is real, but it's too late. Let's focus on mitigation instead and keep digging up coal.~" I like that comment.
• linkBen Ainslie - Yeah.The solution is definitely not burning a shitload more coal.Like, let's just put that out there.
• linkDaniel Midgley - How about that?
• linkBen Ainslie - That is no version of a good outcome to what we're facing.
• linkARIAFLAME - There's a lot of improvements in energy efficiency and renewable energy, which do basically make things cheaper in the long run.Certainly, the bigger companies can often see long-term improvements as being, "Yeah, we'll have to invest something now, but oh yeah, we're going to be reaping it in, in the future."
• linkBen Ainslie - Part of that, I think…
• linkARIAFLAME - My area of research.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh, Alright.Okay, cool.
• linkARIAFLAME - Well, teaching anyway.
• linkBen Ainslie - PharaohKattBen has mistaken the speaker, I would love to hear your perspective or the results of your research on this, is that a lot of this would I imagine have to come down to the culture of leadership in large business organisations.Because in different times and places of business history over the last 50 years, there have been swings and pendulums into, "Okay, we need short-term gains.We need them on the books now.We need profit, stat." And then, there's been other times where sound stewardship comes into vogue essentially and people go, "We're going to build a good reality for this company 10 years from now, 15 years from now, 20 years from now." Do you see a lot of that?
• linkARIAFLAME - Yeah.Well, my area of teaching more than research these days is…
• linkBen Ainslie - Sorry.I think I saw PharaohKatt putting her hand up and then that was underneath Ariaflame.So, I just conflated the two.My bad.
• linkPharaohKatt - Yeah, I had a comment related to this subject, but not a research comment.So, anyway.
• linkSEEJANECRICKET - Yeah.Well, go ahead.
• linkPharaohKatt - I was just thinking that…I follow Dr Karl on Twitter, and he's often posting about how we actually do have the answers.We have the technology.It exists.What we lack is the political will to put it into place.
• linkARIAFLAME - The last election did indicate at least some movement toward that thing!
• linkBen Ainslie - Yes, some political will.
• linkDaniel Midgley - All right, let's go to Ben, not the host one.We've all seen wonderful pictures lately from wonderful space.
• linkDaniel Midgley - BEN NOT THE HOST:Yep.My word that I'm bringing this week is the Just Wonderful Space Telescope.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Ah, yes.As opposed to the James Webb Telescope.Who was this James Webb character anyway?
• linkDaniel Midgley - BEN NOT THE HOST:Yeah.For a bit of history, the telescope that's giving us all these wonderful images this week was first proposed back in 1996, that was when the project to launch it started.So, it's been going for 26 years.
• linkBen Ainslie - Can you imagine the feelings and the emotions of some of these people 26 years down the line when some of these images…?It must be transcendent emotionally, I can't even imagine.
• linkBen Ainslie - BEN NOT THE HOST:So for the first eight years of that project that was just referred to as the Next Generation Space Telescope.And then in 2002, the then-administrator of NASA, Sean O'Keefe, apparently, after discussing it with a few astronomers and getting no pushback, decided that it would be named after James Webb.So, James Webb was the administrator of NASA from 1961 to 1968.So, in the key Apollo…
• linkBen Ainslie - Space race
• linkBen Ainslie - BEN NOT THE HOST:…Yeah, space race era.But this naming has been controversial, particularly among the LGBTQ+ community, and there was a an op-ed published in Scientific American last year by a group of four people who were drawing attention to James Webb's history, first at the State Department where he was the second in command, and during his tenure there, there were a lot of firings of LGBTQ+ people.
• linkBen Ainslie - Oh, he milkshake ducked.
• linkBen Ainslie - LAUGHTER
• linkBen Ainslie - BEN NOT THE HOST:Then, following this sort of environment at the State Department, there was a Senate committee, which has been referred to as the Lavender Scare.Something I didn't actually realise until I started reading about this last night is that Joseph McCarthy was actually part of some of these committees.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh!Bullshit.
• linkBen Ainslie - Oh!Yuck.
• linkBen Ainslie - BEN NOT THE HOST:Yes, and there's also some stories about…sorry, I don't have the name to hand, some people fired from NASA while James Webb was the administrator.
• linkDaniel Midgley - And so, if you're not a fan of James Webb, you can call it the Just Wonderful Space Telescope.
• linkDaniel Midgley - BEN NOT THE HOST:Also, there's a bit of a Twitter thread going on.Just Wonderful was coined, as far as I can tell, by Chanda Prescod-Weinstein, who's a astrophysicist, I think at the University of New Hampshire at the moment, and she was one of the people who wrote that op-ed.There was a bit of a Twitter thread going on.Some other suggestions were the Jelescope Welescope Space Telescope.
• linkBen Ainslie - Love it.Huge fan.Love it.
• linkDaniel Midgley - That's the best since Boaty McBoatface, we thought that was great.
• linkBen Ainslie - It trumps, I think.It is better than…yeah, Jelescope Welescope Space Telescope is delightful.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yes.Lord Mortis.What do you got?
• linkLord Mortis - A number of science fiction awards were named after people who turned out to also be milkshake ducks.And it finally came to the conclusion where in that community at least— I don't know who coined this, but I heard it on Galactic Suburbia —Stop naming awards and things after people because it's just easier that way.
• linkBen Ainslie - Let's call them Nebulas and other sciency things.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Just don't have heroes.
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHTER
• linkDaniel Midgley - BEN NOT THE HOST:One thing I found after the decision was made not to rename it, this is also an executive decision taken by Bill Nelson, who's the current NASA administrator.
• linkDaniel Midgley - The former Congressperson?
• linkDaniel Midgley - BEN NOT THE HOST:Yes, the one who went to space.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yes!Okay.
• linkDaniel Midgley - BEN NOT THE HOST:Yes, Alex Witze, who's a reporter at Nature, did a free FOIA request and received 400 pages of emails from inside NASA about this decision.
• linkBen Ainslie - Ohhhh.Oh, no.
• linkBen Ainslie - BEN NOT THE HOST:I probably don't recommend you read them, but very early on, the historian at NASA— this is early 2021, when they started talking about the possibility of renaming it —he's found in one of his emails, he says:"Recommendation:Don't change the name at this point.Stop naming things after people," he says half joking.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yep.
• linkDaniel Midgley - BEN NOT THE HOST:That's a quote directly from the NASA.
• linkBen Ainslie - Wow.That is amazing.How prescient.
• linkBen Ainslie - LAUGHS
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yes, very good.Okay, tell you what, thank you for that.I love that.Hey, except you got to say it with a little bit of emphasis on space, the Jelescope Welescope Spaaaaace Telescope.Okay, let's go on to O Tim.
• linkO TIM - So, I found OOBE used to mean vanilla, and I was really surprised and just didn't know if it was a thing or not.OOBE used to mean out-of-box experience, at least when I started with computers in the '90s.And it was that rush that you got when you open something up and it was the out-of-box experience of this new toy that you've got.And just a couple of weeks ago, I found text:"On some systems, OOBE's windows renders a bit too big.So, we made this window resizable." It means vanilla Windows, it means just basic Windows.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Just out of the box.
• linkBen Ainslie - So, just to be clear, as well, because if anyone else is like me and they hear vanilla, they think it means boring specifically, like vanilla means very, very plain.As opposed to default, which is how it's being used here, right?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Here we go.
• linkO TIM - It is being used as default because yes, the Barenaked Ladies are correct, vanilla is the finest of the flavors.
• linkO TIM - LAUGHTER
• linkBen Ainslie - That is a great callout.I love it.
• linkO TIM - But I was just really surprised to see that.And that's all I had, really, that was a lot of shifts.But come to think of it, it has been, what, 30 years from the '90s, 20 years?30 years from the '90s.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I do have to say that I love a good out-of-box experience.I have this thing where I save all the boxes for all my computer products.
• linkBen Ainslie - Oh, you…have you seen the TikTok, Daniel?
• linkDaniel Midgley - No.
• linkBen Ainslie - There is a TikTok, where a youngish person basically looks at the camera and basically goes to:all the millennials who are seeing this TikTok, I give you permission to throw your boxes out.
• linkLAUGHTER
• linkBen Ainslie - You don't need them.You can get rid of them.As an elder millennial, I just kind of looked to my left at this row of boxes from various computer components and devices and stuff and I'm like,~I feel attacked!~
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah."Why are they attacking me?" Thank you, O Tim.And our last one from Sonic Snejhog.Sonic, you around?Or possibly not.I don't know Sonic's zoom name.So maybe, I'll just read them.This one:BACHELOR'S HANDBAG.Any guesses?
• linkBen Ainslie - Bachelor's handbag.
• linkDaniel Midgley - What could be a bachelor's handbag?
• linkBen Ainslie - My brain immediately thinks of the way that the queer community uses HANDBAG.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay.
• linkBen Ainslie - So a HANDBAG is a lesbian version of a beard.Right?So that is to say, a straight partner of a person of a woman to mask or socially hide the fact that she is a lesbian.It would be a man— probably a straight man, possibly a gay man, I guess —who will be the handbag of a gay person who is passing as straight in society.So I'm wondering if a bachelor's handbag is some version of that somehow?I don't know.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I can tell you're leaning on the coded version of BACHELOR, as in COMMITTED BACHELOR
• linkBen Ainslie - Ah, yeah, exactly.Right.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Not quite.Who's got it?Who wants to throw this one out?
• linkO TIM - The only thing on my mind was FANNY PACK, but those are still dead, I hope.I hope they're still dead.I don't know.
• linkO TIM - LAUGHTER
• linkBen Ainslie - Like the mullet being back in.Argh, it is unfortunate.
• linkDaniel Midgley - All right, Lord Mortis, spill.
• linkPharaohKatt - Actually, PharaohKatt because we swapped computers.
• linkLAUGHTER
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh, that's right, sorry.Goddammit!
• linkPharaohKatt - Sorry!LAUGHTERAnd I only know this because I saw it posted on the Discord, so I don't know if that's cheating or not.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh, well.
• linkPharaohKatt - This is a very Australian term, and it relates to when you go to Coles or Woolies, you can get a little barbecue cooked chook, like it's all hot and it comes in a little bag.That's your…
• linkPharaohKatt - LAUGHTER
• linkDaniel Midgley - With handles!
• linkPharaohKatt - Yeah, it's got a little bag with little handles.You just pick it up and take it down to the checkout.That is a bachelor's handbag.
• linkBen Ainslie - And you always want to get there after 5PM so you can get your bachelor's handbag for half price.
• linkPharaohKatt - Yes.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Very good.That's fun.It's also been referred to as a TRADIE'S HANDBAG.There's a funny article in the Betoota Advocate.I couldn't tell if they…some people thought that they originated it, the Betoota, the satirical newspaper, the Betoota Advocate, "Local Landscaper Treats Himself to the Bachelor's Handbag for Friday Lunch."
• linkBen Ainslie - LAUGHS
• linkDaniel Midgley - It's a fun one.
• linkBen Ainslie - That is cute, I like that.
• linkDaniel Midgley - All right.So thank you all for those.So, PRECARIAT, CLIMATE OPTIMISM, OOBE meaning default, and I'm going with this, the JELESCOPE WELESCOPE SPACE TELESCOPE, and the BACHELOR'S HANDBAG, our Words of the Week.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Just want to say a huge thanks to all of you for your support, your patronage, for being here today and of course, all the stories and the discussion that you bring to Discord and to the show.And this is Because Language reminding you that, no matter what anybody else does, wear a friggin' mask if you give a shit about other people.Thank you.
• linkBen Ainslie - LAUGHSIt's back.All right, Ben, you want to take the first bit?
• linkBen Ainslie - Um, where are our reads?Are they in the email?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh, shit, I forgot to give you the reads.Goddammit.
• linkBen Ainslie - Shall I just use the ones from the last week's spreadsheet?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah, that'd be good.Yeah, please.
• linkDaniel Midgley - THEME MUSIC
• linkBen Ainslie - If you like the show, here are some of the many things that you can do.You can follow us on all of the socials, we are @becauselangpod everywhere except Spotify, boo Joe Rogan.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Boo.
• linkBen Ainslie - Leave us a message with SpeakPipe.That's on our website and our website is becauselanguage.com.You can send us an email if you liked the old-fashioned type of thing, hello@becauselanguage.com.You can join our Discord, but to do that, you need to become a patron.We'll talk about that in a second.And really importantly/really funly, if you like what we do, if you've listened to us, and you're like, "Heck yeah, this is great," leave us a review somewhere.It doesn't have to be iTunes.iTunes is good but it's not the only place.You can leave us a review in any of the many places that you listen to podcasts.I myself am not an Apple user.I use Pocket Casts, that could be one.You could use the Google Podcast app.Whatever you like, leave us a review somewhere and it is going to do us good.
• linkBen Ainslie - THEME MUSIC CONTINUES
• linkDaniel Midgley - You, our patrons, make it possible for us to make transcripts so that you can read our shows and search our shows.In how many episodes have we mentioned VANILLA?Probably a few, and we're going to do it more.
• linkBen Ainslie - And you can search it because of the things that patrons allow us to do.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yep, and a big thanks to the entire team at SpeechDocs.They're doing a great job on our transcripts.And a shoutout to our top patrons, Dustin, Termy, Chris B, Elias, Matt, Whitney, Chris L, Helen, Udo, Jack, PharaohKatt and Lord Mortis, Larry, Kristofer, Andy B, James, Nigel, Meredith, Kate, Nasrin, Ayesha, Moe, Steele, Manú, Rodger, Rhian, Colleen, Ignacio, Sonic Snejhog, Kevin, Jeff, Andy from Logophilius, Samantha, Stan, Kathy, Rach, Cheyenne, Felicity, Amir, The Canny Archer, O Tim, Alyssa, Chris W.And of course, Kate B who didn't just lightly tap the one-time donation button on our website, Because Language, she smashed it.
• linkBen Ainslie - Grabhammer style.
• linkDaniel Midgley - That's right.Our theme music has been written and performed by Drew Krapljanov, a member of Ryan Beno, and of Didion's Bible.Thanks for listening and for coming here.We'll catch you next time.Because Language.Everybody wave.
• linkBen Ainslie - Pew, pew, pew, pew.Well done.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Thanks all, that was great.
• linkDaniel Midgley - BOOP
• linkDaniel Midgley - Let's see, it's possible that…it's unlikely but possible that my Zoom will crash because it used to happen in the early days with this laptop.But it hasn't happened for a really long time.So, if the whole session comes crashing down, give me a couple of minutes to restart.I'll dump a new link in Discord under the Live Patron EPs.But I think we're pretty good to go.We're recording.Ben looks like…
• linkO TIM - Can I suggest something?
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yeah!
• linkO TIM - Make Ben a cohost and then when you fall off, you can just come back onto the same link.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Oh, yeah.Hey, Ben, you're a cohost!
• linkBen Ainslie - It's all coming together.
• linkDaniel Midgley - I feel like you've been a cohost for quite a while.
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHTER
• linkBen Ainslie - Finally, six years in, and my plan bears fruit.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Ben, I was just looking at the first episodes of Talk the Talk that you appeared in, and our earliest episodes were like 2011.
• linkBen Ainslie - Good lord.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Did you know this?
• linkDaniel Midgley - LAUGHTER
• linkBen Ainslie - Fuck, sorry.I mean…
• linkBen Ainslie - LAUGHTER
• linkDaniel Midgley - February 2011 is the first one that I've got with you.
• linkBen Ainslie - Man, I've got to update my little mental script.You know when you're in a conversation with someone and people are like, "Oh, really.Do you do a podcast?" And you've got that little 25 words or less like, "Yeah, I've been doing it." I guess for the last, I don't know, 11 years, I've been saying, "About five years or so."
• linkDaniel Midgley - Yes, you have!And I've always been looking at my watch going, "Man, Ben's sense of time."
• linkBen Ainslie - What can I say?Now at the tender age of 27, I've only been doing it for five years.
• linkDaniel Midgley - You're not…Anyway!
• linkBen Ainslie - I'm so far away from 27.
• linkDaniel Midgley - You're not 27.Okay, good.Just checking.Now, you've got me worried about MY sense.Are you gaslighting me you, you bastard?
• linkBen Ainslie - No, no, Daniel, I'm not gaslighting you.I'm insulting you, you old.
• linkDaniel Midgley - Okay, that's cool.I can take insults.
• linkBen Ainslie - Yeah.